I always hate to hear of people who commit suicide. It grieves me terribly, because I know what it's like to want to do that—to feel such utter hopelessness, despair, and emptiness. I've contemplated killing myself many times in the past. I came within only seconds of doing that a few years ago. I had planned on driving my car off the road and over a bluff. I remember turning the wheel and hitting the rough edge of the road, and at the last second, I turned the wheel back. I honestly do think that if I had stayed on course only a second longer I would have went over that bluff. I would have killed myself. And the thing is, I really don't know why I didn't. I wasn't afraid of dying. I wanted to die. I just know that something made me turn the wheel, and I don't think that I could ever credit that to anything other than the hands of God directing mine. But I know what it's like to want to die. It's such a terrible, empty feeling. It's a miserable feeling that I don't think any words could ever accurately describe.
Last Friday, a man I knew of—not personally, but just knew of—killed himself. His name was Scott. He was a hairdresser and worked in one of the local shops. I had never met the man myself, but my brother knew him and had told me about him. Just today, my brother informed me that Scott had taken his life. I asked him how it had happened. He told me Scott's parents had found him Thursday night curled up in a ball on the floor with a Bible in his hands, and then the next day, they found him hanging from a rope in his home.
Why? Why did this have to happen? Why couldn't I have done something to help him? To show him the truth?
I blame myself in part for Scott's death. I honestly do. Because here was a Christian man, who lived near to me, who struggled with his sexuality, just as I have, who I knew of and I could have went to and I could have befriended him and helped him, but I didn't. I could have helped him! Thing is, and this is where irony or something has such a horrible way about it, I had prayed for Scott just last Thursday night. I'd thought of him, because he was a hairdresser, and in a book I've been reading, God's Grace and the Homosexual Next Door, Randy Thomas mentions going to a gay hairdresser. That had made me think of Scott, and it made me pray for him to be able to find God, and to be okay. While I was praying for him, he must have felt so awful. He must have felt so lost and empty, and confused and hopeless. And he killed himself.
Why didn't I go to him sooner? Why didn't I do more when I knew there was more I could have done? Why didn't I go to him and tell him how much God loved him?
I know Scott was raised in a Christian home, and I believe he was a Christian. I don't know how God is going to judge him, but I pray that he shows mercy upon him, because I do know that Scott was a kind, warm, loving, and gentle person. I remember how he took pity on one of my nephews when they were babies. Their grandmother has only ever favored just one of the two, and she had left one of them in his carrier without showing him any special attention as she did the other, while at the shop where Scott worked. I know Scott went to that one and held him and played with him. And I always was grateful to him for having done that, so that my nephew didn't feel neglected or alone, or unloved. I wish I had known Scott. I had wanted to meet him for a long time now, and I had just recently been thinking about going to him to get my haircut.
Do you all know that God loves you? Do you know how much God cares about you? Do you know how much he wants to be there for you and to spend time with you, and to make everything in your lives better? Don't you know that he loved you so much that he was brutally beaten and died just to save you? To save all of us. Just so that we could all spend eternity with him. God's not your enemy. This world and the devil is your enemy. And killing yourself is exactly what your enemy wants you to do. I wonder if Scott knew that. I don't suppose that he did. I'd imagine he thought as I did once—that death was the answer, and a way out. You know, God doesn't care that we're attracted to this, or tempted to that. None of that stops him from loving and caring about any of us. He doesn't condemn or hate any of us because we're gay or have homosexual temptations. Nor does he hate us if or when we give into those temptations. He loves us always.
I know that it's not God who made me different, or to have bad feelings, but the devil. I know that God is my best hope, my friend, my daddy. I know that He loves me beyond anything I could ever imagine. And I wish so very much that Scott had known that too. Like I said in my last post, I wish nobody ever died without knowing the truth. I think Scott probably knew some truth. But I doubt that he knew all of it, and I doubt that he ever had the Christian help that quite possibly could have saved his life. I wish I had helped him, and been friends with him. I knew the truth, and I didn't help him. I wish I had helped him.
Please, all of you, pray for Scott and his family, and for all those whose lives he touched. It's so close to Christmas, and I'm sure this has to be so hard on all of them right now. Please also pray for me to always proclaim the truth, and to never hold it back.
50 comments:
Brandon - I have read your blog for a while but I dont think I have ever commented. First of all I am so sorry about Scott..and I will be praying for Him and for his family. Your emotion and your words they encourage me. This trying to combine being a christian with being gay seems enternally endless. But what you wrote is so true God loves u no matter what. Thank-you for expressing your feeling/emotions in this post. You did pray for Scott and I am sure that helped. Try not to be so hard on yourself. By writing on here you are helping others ...believe me.
Derek,
I'm glad I've been able to encourage you.
I ventured over to your blog and read several of your posts earlier. I want you to know that God has a purpose for you, Derek. You ARE important in this world. I can't begin to imagine how painful some of your past experiences must have been for you, but believe in your heart that God will give you a future worth wanting to live if you trust in Him and believe in Him and turn to Him in all things. And take comfort in knowing that God was with you even as you endured such hardships in your past. It might not seem like it, but He was with you, helping you to endure. And He's with you now, too, helping you. He loves you, and He only wants the very best for you.
Thank you for praying for Scott and his family, and for trying to encourage me as well. Know that better days are in your future. And you're in my prayers.
Brandon
derek
i appreciate your sincere words. many years ago, i had to deal with urges about considering suicide. the idea that brought me around was that killing myself wouldn't help me avoid the pain. that if i killed myself i would still go to some other place where i would still have to deal with the same pain. so i my may as well deal with it now.
the other thing was matt 11:28
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
if jesus doesnt put a heavy burden on you. then please dont allow others as well as yourself to put a heavy burden on you.
remember the fruit of the spirit gal 5 and be gentle with yourself.
jesus wants us treat ourselves as gently as we are to treat others.
lastly could you please explain to me how the words to the verses in scripture say that homosexuality is a sin.
my understanding is that homosexuality is the human bonding of two of the same sex, out of mutual love, respect, devotion,and trust for a shared committed life together...............the same as heterosexuals.
what life experiences have you had that says otherwise?
excuse me my intention was to address brandon.............anyone else can reply. but my comments were for brandon...........my apologies
Feetxxxl,
There are a lot of reasons why homosexuality is a sin. No, let me correct that: why homosexual behavior is sinful. First off, allow me to explain that verse from Matthew where Jesus talks about his yoke being easy and his burden light. He was not saying, we are free to sin, or that we no longer have to worry about the law. He was talking to the Jews of his time telling them they no longer had to follow the TRADITIONS the Jewish elders had added onto the law over the years that had literally made everyday Jewish life so burdensome. I believe there were around 700+ traditions that people had to observe on a daily basis. And virtually all of those traditions were meaningless, but were enforced very strictly. Jesus said, forget about traditions and stick to the law alone. Observing the law was enough. But he was also saying that through him, we would no longer have to consistently be offering sacrifices for our sins. He would take that burden away from us as well and replace it with forgiveness of sin through the sacrifice of himself. So, removal of 700+ traditions that had been added onto God's law and no more annual animal sacrifices? I'd say Jesus made our burden light indeed.
What experiences have I had that would say homosexual acts are sinful? Well, anytime I have ever given into them, I have always hurt myself emotionally. I begin to question my masculinity. And from that, I doubt my self-worth and my place among other men. I am a male, but I begin seeing myself more femininely when I engage in homosexual acts. And that is extremely confusing and frustrating for me. It's depressing. There is just a huge conflict there. And that conflict makes me want to distance myself from other people, including God, and that just brings about the added burden of loneliness. So, my conscience usually tells me I'm sinning against myself because to give into those things means I am going to harm myself emotionally. And whatever the homosexual experience has been, even though most of them were physically enjoyable, they have ALL done that to me. The the emotional stuff far exceeds whatever phyical enjoyment I might have gotten. Fifteen minutes of pleasure vs. hours and days of mental anguish just isn't worth it.
As for the Bible, it tells us very directly that homosexual acts are wrong in both the old and new testaments. The bible tells us that God created sex and that he meant for sex to be an act only between a man and woman brought together in marriage. That is what he designed sex for. Anything outside of the marriage relationship is therefore sinful. But also, the Bible tells us that we should not "cross genders". That men should not act as women and that women should not act as men. Now, I know this can be looked at by societal standards in terms or hobbies or things like that in what makes a man a man and a woman a woman, but in terms of sex, men should not have sex with other men as a woman would, and women should not have sex with other women as a man would. God did not make men and women to engage in such acts. He made man to be with woman.
“my understanding is that homosexuality is the human bonding of two of the same sex, out of mutual love, respect, devotion,and trust for a shared committed life together...............the same as heterosexuals.”
I'd say your understanding, based on these words you wrote, is correct for some homosexuals. Some homosexuals DO wish to bond in such a way. But, there are others who just want a quick fix, which can also be the same with heterosexuals. Not all sexual acts are done out of love, respect, devotion, and commitment. Even still, love does not justify sin. When two men (or two women) have sex with each other, they go against the design and intent for which God created them. They slap God in the face, so to speak. It would be like me creating a beautiful painting, giving life to it, and then watching that paint mix with other colors so that it creates a completely different painting than the one I intended it to be. I would find that insulting, wouldn't you? That's how God sees this. So, God calls this sin. And he does that because it hurts him, and he knows it hurts us as well (like with me questioning myself and others (and even God at times) so much because of this. Basically, it's Satan's way of trying to get at us, to deceive us in order to drive a wedge between us and God. Satan wants us to believe God is unloving and unjust so that we will turn away from him).
Even if two people of the same sex love each other, that love does not excuse sinful homosexual acts. Let me use an analogy here. Let's say two people love each other, and both do not want sex with each other, but instead want to do drugs with each other because both of them enjoy doing drugs. Does their love justify their drug use? Absolutely not! Sometimes love can be an excuse, but it does not justify.
You know, there is nothing wrong with two men loving each other and wanting to spend time with each other and so forth. That's called friendship. And if those friends truly love each other, they'll resist committing any sinful acts against each other. They'll be with each other in a Godly way.
As for the wording of scripture concerning homosexuality? I think 1 Cor. 6:9-11 sums that up rather well. First off, Paul used a word which refers strongly back to the word used in the book of Leviticus referring to homosexual. Arsenokoite (I hope I spelled that right). Now in the passage I just mentioned, here is what Paul says: “Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” In that verse, three things in particular are mentioned: idolaters, male prostitutes, and homosexual offenders. In the original texts, all three of these are written in different words. Some people would try to excuse monogamous homosexual relationships by saying that the prohibition to homosexual acts in the Bible only refers to male prostitutes who aren't by nature attracted to people of the same sex, or that it only refers to a prohibition against those committing homosexual acts as a part of idol worship. Thing is, the above verse adds one more thing “homosexual offenders”. Paul was clearly not talking about idolaters or prostitutes because he had already mentioned them. And since he used a different word in the original text “arsenokoite”, which is similar to the original wording for homosexual used in Leviticus, Paul must have been talking about homosexual acts altogether. He was affirming the law and the teachings which God had brought down through the ages. So, homosexual acts are sinful.
I hope I've answered your questions. If not, or if you'd like me to further explain anything, I'll try again.
I will refer you to a book by Joe Dallas called “Desires In Conflict”. At the end of his book he has a very in depth explanation for why homosexual acts are sinful. I'd recommend you read that book, because Dallas does so much better a job at explaining all this than I ever could. But on top of that, I encourage you to read your Bible a little more closely. If you can, buy a study Bible or a Life Application Bible that has notes concerning the texts. That's helped me a lot at understanding a great deal of the Bible. Also, I always have to recommend the NIV Bible, just because it's a little more understandable for our now-a-day English.
Hope all this helped. God bless, and don't be a stranger.
Brandon
P.S. I agree with what you said about suicide. And I appreciate your words of encouragement. Thanks.
brandon
got to go to work, so ill have to be brief.
first of all, i would say that i have lived a heterosexual life, yet i can say that i have had the same difficulty, which is why im still single and have never been married. and that i dont like the person i become when im emotionally and sexually intimate. that solitude seems to be the only place i feel safe and nurtured. so my way of dealing with it is to reach out to other relationships.
you need to finish reading 1cor 6: 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
do you think they were washed and sanctified and justified because t because they changed their behavior? do you think and any change in behavior would have effected their washing, sanctification, and justification. if you can, please annotate with scripture.
in romans where it says we are no longer under the law, but are under grace instead and serve of and are led by the spirit, and nowhave a new relationship to the spirit not like the old one to the written code..............what does that mean to you?
consider that like jesus, paul is calling us to fulfill the law rather than follow it..........the fulfillment being love........loving god,self neighbor, and one another.........the law now being for conscious.
Dear Brandon,
I was out of town for a couple days visiting very dear friends in the mountains. I had a wonderful time and was in a great mood when I got home.
But then I read your e-mail and blog.
When I read the end of your latest SCF lesson and then the post on your blog I was overwhelmed with grief. I never personally knew Scott and yet the thought of someone committing suicide in such a manner and being discovered by his mother brought me to tears. I cried so hard that I shook.
There are a few things I would like to say.
First, there are two lies of Satan that strugglers are constantly being bombarded with:
“You are a homosexual and you cannot change - just accept it.”
the other is
“You are a homosexual and you cannot change - so kill yourself.”
Both of these are lies are from the pit of hell and if you believe either of them they will lead you to death.
Second, we all meet thousands of non-Christians everyday. All of them need to hear the gospel but we do not always have the opportunity for one reason or another to share it with them. Salvation is of the Lord and so while we are to be obedient in advancing the Kingdom of God through witnessing and the preaching of the gospel we only plant or water but it is God who makes it grow. (1 Corinthians 3;6)
Third, unless you murdered Scott you are not responsible for his death. He is responsible for his own actions. It is very common for family members and friends of those who commit suicide to blame themselves and repeatedly say to themselves, “If only I had....” and then list a number of things they think could have prevented their loved one from killing themselves. This is one of the reasons why suicide is a very selfish act - it causes unbelievable amount of grief (even in me who did not know him personally) and a false sense of guilt in those left behind.
Fourth, use this experience as motivation to reach the lost and those Christians who think they have no hope for change. I have changed so much it is hard to look back at where I was 6 months ago and believe that the person who started my blog was really me. The change has come slowly but it has come through perseverance, self control using the means of grace (Scripture, prayer etc.) and with the love and support of my brothers.
Rik,
Thank you. I don't know what else to say other than just thank you. You've been so good to me, and I love ya, buddy. I'm sorry to have brought such a downer on the good weekend you had. I was just full of grief too. The last couple of days I cried so much that it hurt. And I was blaming myself, at least partially, but I know you're right in what you said. And that's sort of the message I felt from God late last night. I felt like God was telling me, "Stop worrying about this. It is between Me and Scott. Not you, so leave it in My hands and don't worry about it." But still, it's such a sad thing. And I wish I could have been there for him.
Derek,
Yes, I do know the rest of 1 Cor. 6:11. What this means to me is that people can change. But it also means that people are under grace and are forgiven for their sins. However, that does not give us a lisence to sin. Just because we are forgiven of our sins, does not mean we are allowed to sin. God still expects us to live sinless lives. We are to strive to live that way. Yes, we will all slip up from time to time. And we will be forgiven, those of us in Christ, for what sins we do commit. What Paul is saying is, here are some sins to avoid falling into, and do not be fooled just because you are under grace. He tells us that we should not sin so that grace may abound, but should strive to live sinless lives for Christ. And we should do that because of our love for Jesus. Jesus had to take a huge punishment on our behalf. He took on the sins of all the world, past, present, and future, and so when we sin, that's just like adding one more bit of punishment and pain upon him that he had to endure. Out of my love for Jesus, I therefore try my best not to sin. Does that make sense?
Getting back to love, if you truly love your neighbor you will not help him (or her) to sin. If you love Jesus, you will not add one more sin to his burden. If you love God, you will honor Him and strive to live as He has told us we should live. And if you love yourself, you will obey God's word to avoid possible punishment yourself. On that note, I do not think a person is "once saved, always saved". We can look at Judas for that. He betrayed the word of God, and his friend. He turned away from God. On that note, any of us can fall from grace. When we begin to have a lack of concern for the sin in our lives, this is so easy to do, because we begin thinking more fondly of our sins that of our Lord and Savior.
As for turning to other relationships, which you mentioned in your first paragraph, I wasn't entirely sure what you meant. If you meant you are heterosexual, but you enjoy spending time with other men, that alone is not homosexuality and is not necessarily sinful. You are in friendship with other men, and it's okay for two men to love each other in this fashion. God honors such relationships. But if you meant you turn to sexual involvement with other men, then yes that is homosexual, and you need to stop that. God does not honor such a relationship. Even if it is driven by love. With the exception of having sex, however, God would probably honor most everything else in that relationship. The love, the friendship, etc.
I hope that answeres your questions. Let me know if there's anything else.
Brandon
One more thing about falling from grace. I just wanted to add that we can always turn back to Christ. I just wanted to make that clear. God never turns away anybody at any time of their lives when they are willing to come to him. (i.e. the Prodical Son).
in regards to your comments about 1cor6................ephesians 2:8-9 we are saved by grace thru faith,this is a gift of god it is not by works, lest anyone should boast.
i agree with your comments about living in christ.
"god's word", god speaks to everyone both believers and non believers. if you are talking about words of scripture. any group of words requires interpretation. so are you saying god's word according to a conservative interpretation.
however there is the word of god which was total and complete understanding about acting for god's purposes for a particular task.
1kings 19: 22 But this WORD OF GOD came to Shemaiah the man of God: 23 "Say to Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, to the whole house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people,
matt15:Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
luke 3:2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the WORD OF GOD came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
i found god's word in only one place romans9:5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though GOD'S WORD had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b]
this appears to referring to god's word going out and always returning fruitful.
isaiah55:10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
judas didnt understand, but neither did the apostles until after penacost, nor saul who was busy torturing christians, someetimes to their death, until he was knocked off his horse by a blinding light.
also jesus does not live in judas, like he does you and i.
do you think that those who die to christ and are resurrected to grace, who sin because they do not understand lose their salvation?
are you familiar with romans 10: 5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Feetxxxl,
Let me explain a little better my understanding of the law. First off, the law itself cannot save us. Our works in themselves cannot save us. We are only saved through our faith in and obedience to Jesus. However, that does not mean that the law should be completely thrown out the window, and we are told this by Jesus himself when he tells us that he did come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
Now, we are given a lot of knowledge about God through the law. We can see through it his ideal way for us to be living. However, we humans, who are fallen by nature, cannot always live up to the law. We are prone to sin from time to time. In that regard, Paul tells us that we cannot be saved by our following the law (I believe in the book of Galations) because we can't by nature always live up to it. But that we can only be saved through Jesus.
The law does reveal to us many things, which God considers sinful, and homosexuality is one of those things. Now, put all that together with where Paul also tells us that we should not sin so that grace may abound, and I hope you see where I'm coming from.
We are told that homosexuality is sinful. We are told that because of Christ, we are no longer under the law, but that we are saved through faith in him and his grace and forgiveness of our sins. Now because of that, it is real easy to assume that that means we no longer have to recognize what God has called sinful through the law, and that we therefore don't have to worry about trying to resist sinning because we are under grace. But we are also told, however, that we should not sin so that Christ's grace may abound. Are you following me? All of this is truth. It is not my abstaining and resisting homosexual activity which saves me, but it is my faith in Christ. And as a person of faith, I am united to Christ. The bible, in the new testament, also tells us that we should not unite Christ's body with a prostitute (sin). When we sin, we sin against the very one we are united with, Christ Jesus. So, out of my love for Jesus, I try to live a sinless life as he did. And I do not do that in order to be saved, but to honor God. I do that because I know in my heart that he wants me to live a life as free of sin as I possibly can. And I want it like that too. And through the power of Jesus, I am able to resist temptations, and make my life a little less sinful.
"Do you think that those who die to christ and are resurrected to grace, who sin because they do not understand lose their salvation?" I don't know. Honestly, probably not. If a person is in Christ but doesn't understand that they are sinning, I don't think they'd lose their salvation, but that's not my call, it's God's. As long as we are following God with what knowledge we do have, then I think we're okay. But such things are always up to God. Only he can look into a persons heart and know how they lived.
However, that does not mean that the law should be completely thrown out the window, and we are told this by Jesus himself when he tells us that he did come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
let me put it this way.do you think jesus walked this earth with a major concern over the law, so as not ot violate it. or did he walk this earth living a life of love. and that is why he did not sin, because fulfillment of the law is...............love.
you talk about doing away with the law. is there a law for love, joy,peace,kindness,gentleness, goodness, self-control, patience, and faithfulness. but not doing these would that not be a sin of ommission. if fulfillment of the law is love. if we live a loving life are we not fulfilling the law?
"Now, we are given a lot of knowledge about God through the law. We can see through it his ideal way for us to be living"
does not an overemphasis about the law diminish christ matt 7:24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock."
read matthew 7
does not fruit mean fruit of the spirit.?
in 1cor13 it says that anything without love is nothing. could that also include an understanding of the law.
i guess i would have an understanding if you said uniting my body with a prostitute was against loving myself, or against loving the prostitute, then i would have an understanding of what you are saying. or you said i love jesus and try to live my life in his love, then i would understand. you agree that fulfillment of the law is love, but you add, "i will still sin if i dont put myself under the law." is not the love of christ sufficient for our lives?
merry christmas!
THE BELL
I KNOW WHO I AM
I am God's child (John 1:12)
I am Christ's friend (John 15:15 )
I am united with the Lord(1 Cor. 6:17 )
I am bought with a price(1 Cor. 6:19-20)
I am a saint (set apart for God). (Eph. 1:1)
I am a personal witness of Christ. (Acts 1:8)
I am the salt & light of the earth ( Matt.5:13-14)
I am a member of the body of Christ(1 Cor 12:27)
I am free forever from condemnation ( Rom. 8: 1-2)
I am a citizen of Heaven. I am significant ( Phil.3:20)
I am free from any charge against me (Rom. 8:31 -34)
I am a minister of reconciliation for God(2 Cor.5:17-21)
I have access to God through the Holy Spirit (Eph. 2:18)
I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph. 2:6)
I cannot be separated from the love of God( Rom.8:35-39)
I am established, anointed, sealed by God (2 Cor.1:21-22)
I am assured all things work together for good (Rom. 8: 28)
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit (John 15:16 )
I may approach God with freedom and confidence (Eph. 3: 12 )
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Phil. 4:13)
I am the branch of the true vine, a channel of His life (John 15: 1-5)
I am God's temple (1 Cor. 3: 16 ). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2: 10)
I am hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am God's co-worker (1 Cor.. 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1). I am God's workmanship(Eph. 2:10 )
I am confident that the good works God has begun in me will be perfected. (Phil 1: 5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven( Col.1:14).I have been adopted as God's child(Eph 1:5)
I belong to God
Do you know
who you are!?
Keep this bell ringing...pass it on
'The LORD bless you and keep you;
the LORD make His face shine upon you
and be gracious to you;
the LORD turn His face toward you
and give you peace..'
Numbers 6:24-26
Feetxxxl,
First off, I miswrote something last time. I did not mean to write that Jesus "tells us that he did come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it." I meant to write that he "did not" come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. That's what Jesus tells us.
Now, you seem to be going in circles and answering yourself in the process. You say, "Let me put it this way. do you think jesus walked this earth with a major concern over the law, so as not to violate it. or did he walk this earth living a life of love. and that is why he did not sin, because fulfillment of the law is...............love."
You are right in what you say, but I think you fail to understand fully what you are saying. Yes, Jesus' main concern was love, and out of his love he did not sin. But, without the law, how do we know what sin is? You see, Jesus knew what sin was because of the law.
Now, what I'm saying is that love IS more important. Love for God, Jesus, and our fellow man. And that out of our love, we will do our best not to sin. That's what this all boils down to--our love for God and others, or our love for sin. We must decide. If we truly love God, we won't sin. We'll do our best not to sin.
Okay, so dealing with homosexuality. You seem to imply that if two homosexuals love each other, then it's okay for them to have sex with each other. Well, that's just not true. I wrote a comment on Rik's blog, which I'd hoped you'd read, talking about this. Sex does not equal love. Just because two people love each other, does not mean they should have sex with each other, or that it's okay for them to have sex with each other. The Bible clearly tells us that sex should only be an expression of love between one man and one woman who have united themselves together in marriage (marriage defined by God and not man). For everyone else, there are other ways of expressing your love for someone besides through sex. Such as an act of kindness, a hug, a kiss on the cheek, giftgiving, or spending time with each other.
Now, the Bible DOES tell us that homosexual acts are wrong. We may not understand sometimes why God would say that is wrong, but that doesn't matter. If we love God, and if we are to live as Christ lived--free of sin--then we should avoid giving into homosexual temptations or other sins.
You say, "does not an overemphasis about the law diminish christ?" First off, I've never said (or at least I've never meant to say) that the law is more than Christ. However, it is a great resource in terms of knowing what is sinful. Yes, we are to live lives of love, while resisting sinful temptations at the same time--as Christ did. I hope you understood that last sentence, so I'll repeat it "Yes, we are to live lives of love, while resisting sinful temptations at the same time--as Christ did." If we are truly to call ourselves Christians, then we should follow Christ's example of living. Wouldn't you agree? If so, that means living a life of love, while resisting sinful temptations as well.
You say, "i guess i would have an understanding if you said uniting my body with a prostitute was against loving myself, or against loving the prostitute, then i would have an understanding of what you are saying. or you said i love jesus and try to live my life in his love, then i would understand. you agree that fulfillment of the law is love, but you add, "i will still sin if i dont put myself under the law." is not the love of christ sufficient for our lives?"
I have never said "I will still sin if I don't put myself under the law." What I have said is that all people sin, and that because of our sins, no one can ever keep the law. We all break it from time to time. That's precisely why we need Jesus. Jesus takes away the punishment we should rightfully receive for breaking the law. He did that by accepting our punishment upon himself, through the sacrifice of his life. Because of that, we no longer are under the law, but are under His grace. That alone, however, does not mean it is okay for us to sin. God still does not want us to sin. And I believe it does deeply hurt Him when we choose to sin--when we choose to live our lives our way rather than His way. Now when I say that, I am not saying that when we sin, while under grace, we lose our salvation. What I'm simply saying is that if we truly love God, we will want to avoid sinning as much as we can. When we do that, we are choosing God over the sinfulness of this world, and doing so is pleasing to God. Trying our best to obey God is an act of love for God, because it shows that we care about Him, and that we trust Him to know what is best for our lives.
Brandon
P.S. I appreciated your last post. I like that. :)
SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WHAT PAUL SAID. "THE LAW IS FOR CONSCIOUS." BUT IN CHRIST OUR CONSCIOUSNESS OF SIN GOES FAR BEYOND REGULATION "THE DO NOTS" BECAUSE OF THE ADDITIONAL COMMANDMENT OF LOVING ONE ANOTHER AS CHRIST HAS LOVED US. HOW IS PUTTING SOMEONE UNDER THE LAW AN EXPRESSION OF CHRIST'S COMMANDMENT? HAS NOT ALL THINGS BEEN PUT UNDER CHRIST?
it appears that in dealing with the issue of homosexuality, the concern for fellowship and love has been thrown out the window.
you say that scripture says that homosexuality is a sin. i know all the scriptures, so dont repeat them, but explain how the words of scripture say that homosexuality is a sin. starting with romans 1.
what truth is exchanged for what lie and how is the created worshipped and served so that individuals are given over to homosexuality. where in scripture are individuals given over to a SUPPOSED SPECIFIC sin thru the embracing of an unspecified lie for denying an unspecified truth, or thru an unspecifed worship and service of the created.
explain the the lust ridden shame based relations in 27. how does lust describe anything other than relations. where there is lust, there are only relations not relationships. because in lust the other person is merely there to satiate the lust. and there is only committment to the lust and not to the person. hence the violation of that person and the bringing of shame, and the self loathing and self hatred that comes from the shame.
.
is there shame from a love that embraces the fruit of the spirit. is there shame from a love that embraces love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, self-control, patience, faithfulness, and gentleness.
so in order to make homosexuality a sin it is necessary to deny your witness of any love that embraces the fruit of the spirit for regulation. it is necessary to deny the love that brings self affirmation and in order to put them under the law.
and in putting them under the law gives cause for denying fellowship. when it is in fellowship that we walk in the light. and in denying fellowship we step back into darkness.
because fellowship is the honoring of each other's life experiences. that at particular moment in time a person's life either he did or believed he did experience, feel, see etc a particular thing.
Feetxxxl,
If two homosexual men are in love with each other, I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing. And they can express their love for each other in a multitude of ways that is considered Godly. But sex is not one of those Godly ways.
You asked me to explain how the words of scripture say that homosexuality is a sin, starting with romans 1. And to also explain what truth is exchanged for what lie and how the created is worshipped and served so that individuals are given over to homosexuality.
First off, we know that homosexual acts are sinful because the bible clearly tells us so. When the words written say do not do this, it means we should not do that, because it is sinful behavior in the eyes of God. It couldn't be any more clearer than it is. And you'll either believe in the Bible or not. If you believe homosexual acts are okay then you are not believing in the Bible. You seem to be implying that any act called sin in the bible is okay to commit so long as it's done out of love. By that rationale, is it okay for a father and son who love each other to have sex with each other? If you say that homosexuality is okay so long as it's expressed out of love, then would you also believe that incest is okay so long as it's expressed out of love? Surely you don't think that, do you?
Now, what truth is exchanged for what lie? Since you say you are heterosexual, I don't know if you'll understand this fully, but having struggled with homosexuality myself I can tell you that there are a lot of lies connected to this. First of all is the lie that I'm not like other men, that I'm not good enough, or manly enough. Second is the thought, which I've had at times, that I'm more of a woman trapped in a mans body than anything else. Both of these things are lies. God made me male through and through. He made no mistake about that. And I am every bit as good as the next guy. I do have worth as a man. To believe otherwise is to believe in a lie.
One of the biggest lies is that the only way I can ever feel accepted or loved by another man is to have sex with one. That's certainly a lie. There are plenty of other ways of relating to another guy, besides through sexuality.
Do you see from all that where God's truth is being exchanged? When a man does not look at himself as being a man, or as being as good as other men, he is believing against the very nature which God created in him. And when a man thinks more of his sin than of God, that is a form of idolatry (worship). If my love for another guy caused me to sin against God, I would therefore be telling God that my love for that man is greater than my love for Him. That's idolatry.
You say, "it appears that in dealing with the issue of homosexuality, the concern for fellowship and love has been thrown out the window." Absolutely not! Two men can certainly fellowship and love each other. You are confusing sex for love if you believe the only way two men can express a love for each other is through sex. There again is another lie. Love can be expressed in many different ways--not just through sex.
The bible makes it abundantly clear that homosexual acts are sinful. You can either believe the bible or not concerning this. But when something makes you question God's created order, and the identity he chose to give you, you are believing in lies. And yes, we are to live by love. But sex does not equal love, and love does not excuse sin. If love excused sin, Christ himself would not have died sinless. Christ, because of his love, upheld the law, and therefore lived a sinless life. And if we are in Christ, we should strive to do the same.
brandon
im being absolutely sincere, when i ask where does it say that homosexuality is a sin?
it wasnt until robinson was elected bishop that decided that i had to determine in my own heart whether scripture said homosexuality was a sin. homosexuality, the bonding of 2 people of the same sex out of mutual love,attraction, respect, and devotion for a shared committed life together.
so i studied the scriptures. in studying the scriptures i came to the realization that in my heart i did not only believe that the scriptures under the new covenant didnt say it was a sin but under the old covenant as well. in lev not all prohibitions of themselves are not sins....... such as household chores on the sabbath.
numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded moses.
under the old covenant god from his directives to his people, indicated that he wanted a people set apart. and gave rules for taking slaves( which under the new covenant is a sin), rules for eating, which are no longer followed, and rules of chastity.
lev21:10 " 'The high priest, the one among his brothers who has had the anointing oil poured on his head and who has been ordained to wear the priestly garments, must not let his hair become unkempt [c] or tear his clothes. 11 He must not enter a place where there is a dead body. He must not make himself unclean, even for his father or mother, 12 nor leave the sanctuary of his God or desecrate it, because he has been dedicated by the anointing oil of his God. I am the LORD.
13 " 'The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, 15 so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am the LORD, who makes him holy. [d] ' "
but under the new covenant which is now under christ.
first of all jesus said that he has a lot more to tell us, that we at this time, could not bear. and that he would send the holy spirit from which we will learn all truth.
jesus also said that what was the father's was given him and all things were put under him.
john15:9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE LEARNED from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
he also gave gave the parable of the good tree saying that you will recognize them by their fruit. my understanding is that fruit is fruit of the spirit.
in regards to a man leaving his parents and uniting with a wife.
matt19: 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
are you not also aware of:
matt19: 11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
AND jesus does not say ONLY in the uniting of the two. his comment is about spirit (john 4... the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth, or the truth of the spirit.) if homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals then all are of christ.
otherwise show me in the teachings of christ where christ emphasizes a particular physical form of action being of god. instead all his teachings are about spirit, anything of the spirit is of god.
gen is about gang rape, it clearly identifies a spirit that is against the spirit of god.
1cor and 1tim the translation before the transposition of an 18th century word into a 2000 year old text was " defiling oneself with mankind" here it is referring to lust ridden shame based acts of romans. defiling involves shame. the motivation a defilement is lust.
however sins committed in the commission of any sex relations does not condemn that orientation. otherwise heterosexuality would long since been condemned.
1 thess 5::21 says test everything hold onto the good. what is your spirit test for homosexuality that because of the essence of the spirt of homosexual bonding that it is against god?
is it your understanding that something can have and be of the embodiment of the spirit and still be against god?
Feetxxxl,
You are right in saying that the bible never directly states word for word that “homosexual acts committed between two consenting individuals out of a mutual love, attraction, respect, and devotion for each other is wrong”. However, the bible does say enough about homosexuality and sexuality in general to make me believe that all forms of homosexual behavior is immoral. Just as it never says homosexual acts “between two loving people” is wrong, it also never says that it is right by those same standards. On the contrary, we ARE told what is right in terms of human sexuality. We are told that God created man and woman and that they are to unite in marriage and multiply. We are told that sex should be reserved for those ONLY in marriage. The bible makes this clear many times. Nowhere does it ever say that two men (or two women) should unite in marriage and that sexual acts would be okay in a two person of the same-sex relationship. My understanding, from what I've read throughout the entire bible, is that any sexual acts committed between any two people outside of a God-defined marriage is immoral. It doesn't matter if love is involved or not, because God has firmly told us that sex should only be experienced between two people in marriage. Period.
Now, concerning the spirit, allow me to quote Galations 5:16-26. “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
Notice when Paul states, “I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Where else in the Bible does he talk about the things that will keep a person from inheriting the kingdom of God? Well, he told the Corinthians a very similar thing, which included homosexual acts as something of the sinful nature. Now, how do we know that sexual immorality of all kinds, hatred, envy, drunkenness, etc. are wrong? We know that because of the law. We are no longer under the law, but it is still, in part, through the law that we see a bit of God's character, and we learn what he considers right and wrong ways of living. The verses in Leviticus telling us that man should not have sex with man, and women should not have sex with women, is a part of the law, and a part of God's teaching us what is right and wrong, and he makes it clear that homosexual behavior in any way is wrong by such a simple statement as that. Now, according to Paul, if we live by the spirit, we will no longer satisfy the desires of the sinful nature. Homosexual behavior being mentioned as a part of what is sinful, we will therefore not engage in those things if we truly are led by the Spirit. Regardless of whether or not we are in love. If we love someone, we have all sorts of good and godly ways for expressing our love besides sex.
In the same way, if we are truly led by the Spirit, we will not disregard God's truth. God made me a man. That is truth. Now, because of the lies told to me by the devil, I have seen myself as something other than man. I haven't seen myself as a woman, but something in between man and woman. To see myself as anything other than man is to not see God's truth. If I am led by the Spirit, I will recognize that God made me man, and as a man, woman should be my compliment. Not other men. I hate to borrow this sad statement, but it rings true in this case. “God did not create Adam and Steve, He created Adam and Eve”. God meant for man to be with woman. That was his design for us. Now, the devil has used lies in order to make us believe otherwise. He wants us to go against what God intended. And I've already explained that in other comments.
As for testing everything and holding onto the good. I have found nothing good in believing the lies of homosexuality. There is no good that can come of it. Now, if two men (or two women) love each other, then that's great. But the second they engage in sexual acts with each other, they go against God. In my own experiences, I'll just say that I've found nothing good about it. I don't like the way it makes me feel different, the way it makes me question my masculinity and my value as a man among other men, and I don't like the way it makes me want to separate from wanting fellowship with other Christians and with God. The only good that ever came out of me engaging in homosexual behavior was the closeness it made me feel to other guys at the time. But that closeness came at the cost of making me feel different and separated me from God due to my questioning his making me a man. I've learned that there are better ways of feeling closer to other guys instead of by having sex with them, and those ways are better because they affirm my masculinity, create real, loving friendships, and make me want to draw closer to God. Yes, I have tested homosexuality, and I have personally found nothing good about it.
Brandon,
You have made an error in your response here. The Bible does indeed call homosexual sex a sin - directly. Before making such a huge mistake as to assert that the Bible does not call it a sin, please do your homework and study the texts at hand.
The Bible in Romans 1:26-27 calls homosexual sex a “degrading passion” “contrary to nature” an “indecent act” which “receives a due penalty” for what? For their “error.” The word “error” in Greek is “planehs” and it means to deviate from what is right. What does the word “sin” mean? The Greek word for “sin” is “harmartia.” What does this word mean? Its root meaning is the same as “planehs” which is an “error in judgment.” In both cases the words are used to mean an err in relation to morality and ethics - to deviate from God’s order and standard for holiness. Therefore, “planehs” is a synonym for “harmartia.”
I will post another long paper on homosexuality and the purity laws later this week which will cover this issue more in depth.
Keep up the good work, keep studying, thinking and defending the faith!
Love ya bro!
Rik
Hey Rik,
I know what you're talking about. Either I mispoke, or you misunderstood me. What I was talking about was the word for word statement, which Feetxxxl used "That homosexual acts between two people who love each other and want to spend their lives together is a sin." Of course the Bible says homosexual acts are wrong and sinful, but it doesn't say "word for word" the above statement. At least nowhere that I've found. The bible never, to my knowledge, discusses the love aspect between two homosexual individuals, wherein their love and commitment would make homosexual activity okay. Please correct me if I'm wrong. :)
2john 1:5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
1john4:
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command:
this is what i dont understand. you acknowledge relationships of love, and you know the above words. when i say relationships of love i dont just mean eros............ i mean agape because they embrace the fruit of the spirit(galations 5) and affirm, embrace and are devoted to CHRIST being LORD.. but, even those that marry, out of regulation you say it is against god. and the only way you can justify that is to put them under regulation. where in scripture does it say that ONLY opposite genders should marry. how is that possible if all marriages are made in the same spirit.
is it your understanding that anything not specifically mentioned in scripture is not of god. why would jesus say he has more to tell us, and that he would do it thru the holy spirit. why didnt he say that all we need to know he would tell the apostles who will pass it on to other believers.
how is it you can put so much specificity on some issues and inference on others in such a one sided way. and why do you put much emphasis on the law and so little emphasis on love and on the spirit and the fruit of the spirit, which paul says thru christ we are led by and are to serve of.
did you read the scriptures i gave you. that christ has withheld nothing from us. that everything that the father has made known to him he has made known to us. and paul saying that what is of the sin nature is obvious.................... it doesnt require deep study of the greek, and a lengthly dissertation on this means this, and this means that.................intellectual gymnastics.............some kind of special knowledge. look at the list ................sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like...........there is no mystery here..........................does it take any special knowledge to know that these all come against the spirit of christ and loving one another?
i have asked rik several time as to explain the how the words of the verses say that homosexuality is a sin. he has of yet been unable.
but according to romans1 this is unnecessary.
if god wrote spirit of his laws on our hearts, the spirt of love and in romans 1 says that there has never been any excuse for man to sin(believers or unbelievers) and not know what was good, because he has made his goodness known thru what he created.
so lastly i say that we have been blessed because we believers have not only that, but the triune god living inside us........living in our hearts. we have only to go to our own hearts where we commune with christ. what does our heart's say about homosexuality and does our understanding come from and in the form of love, joy, peace, kindmess,patience ,goodness,faithfulness,self-control, and gentleness......................rather than fear, anxiety, contempt, disgust, and ridicule..
in regard to your comments about lev. 1thess 5:21 says test EVERYTHING, keep the good. surely because lev was under a different covenant, and because some regulations are followed and some are not, would this not be one areas that would be tested................paticularly considering the writings of
hebrews8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
and matt 19:11(in regards to marriage)
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
and romans 7:5
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
would not the test be scriptural, and fellowship witness. and if there was to be a fellowship witness test(a first hand, one on one test as described in scripture) wouldn't it be in the same manner as in 1john1.....".that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life."
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
in other words, a test, of a witness of fellowship with other believers who happen to be gay, who share our same inheritance, sharing our relationship with christ with each other possibly in worship, intercession, in community etc to see if their is a dimunition of spirit, a spirit of idol worship, validation of a spirit of lust, or a spirit of denial, etc.
what i find disconsoling is that the reluctance to witness in fellowship by believers, as if to acknowledge that the spirit of he who lives in us is not greater than he who is in the world.
what other credible witness is there, if it isnt done in the light?
and lastly when i think of all he things that make up a relationship, love, honesty, trust, devotion, respect,,,,,,,,,the embacing of the fruit of the spirit.................loving one another in the way that christ loved us. to say that if you have all these lead to sexual intimacy under vows of marriage, but this item of sexual intimacy negates it all, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and puts an incredible over emphasis on the power of sex so as to create unhealthy approach to our own sexuality as well as to to life and living.
i've always thought that sex was a natural expression of intimacy when all these other factors were in place. and a less than healthy way of living to do it, when they weren't.
in the area of holiness my understanding, about holiness in christ, was that there is nothing that we can do to make ourselves holy, rather it was christ living inside us that made us holy. living holy lives means making choices that honors the spirit that lives in us.
are you aware of 2cor7:9
now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
godly sorrow is of the spirit................godly sorrow without REGRET!
therefore my understanding is that if one is selling themselves or others, guilt or regret, they are not of christ!
my own experience of having holy spirit reveal a particular sin...........was gentle nudging............an awareness of the sin..............an encouragement to do otherwise ............... an absence of judgemnt or regret.
most of the regret i have ever carried was about defiling an image i created about myself.
also romans 2:4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
:
Feetxxxl,
Here is what Jesus had to say about the law: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)
Now, I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the earth has not yet disappeared, has it? Jesus himself tells us that the law, in part at least, still applies, and will apply until everything is fulfilled. Everything will not be fulfilled until the day of judgement, which has yet to come.
Here's what my Bible says in the study notes about the law from the above passage: "God's moral and cermonial laws were given to help people love God with all their hearts and minds. Throughout Israel's history, however, these laws had been often misquoted and misapplied. By Jesus' time, religious leaders had turned the laws into a confusing mass of rules. When Jesus talked about a new way to understand God's law, he was actually trying to bring people back to it's original purpose. Jesus did not speak against the law itself, but against the abuses and excesses to which it had been subjected. If Jesus did not come to abolish the law, does that mean all the Old Testament laws still apply to us today? In the Old Testament, there were three categories of law: ceremonial, civil, and moral. (1) The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship. It's primary purpose was to point forward to Jesus Christ; these laws, therefore, were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. While we are no longer bound by ceremonial laws, the principles behind them--to worship and love a holy God--still apply. Jesus was often accused by the Pharisees of violating ceremonial law. (2) The civil law applied to daily living in Israel. Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct. Jesus demonstrated these principles by example. (3) The moral law (such as the ten commandments) is the direct command of God, and it requires strict obedience. The moral law reveals the nature and will of God, and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the moral law completely."
Now, if all of that is true, then the Levitical prohibition against homosexuality still applies today. To say otherwise, you lie about God's word.
Here is what Jesus had to say about marriage: "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female,' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." (Mark 10:6-9).
Jesus was discussing the subject of divorce, however, he clearly upheld God's view of marriage. Here is what the study notes in my Bible says: "Women were often treated as property. Marriage and divorce were regarded as transactions similar to buying and selling land. But Jesus condemned this attitude, clarifying God's original intention--that marriage brings oneness (Genesis 2:24). Jesus held up God's ideal for marriage and told his followers to live by that ideal." So, what was that ideal marriage according to God, which Jesus upheld? That God created man and woman to unite themselves in a lifelong, commited relationship, and that they should love each other as they would love themselves, because together they were one. Nowhere in all of scripture is marriage anything consisting of or being between two people of the same sex. And since we are told that God's ideal for marriage is only between one man and one woman, I'm inclined to believe that's how it should always ever be. Anything to the contrary goes against the teachings of the Bible and is a lie--an invention of man.
Here is what Jesus has to say about sexual immorality: "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" (Matthew 15:17-20)
Here again, is what the study notes say: "We work hard to keep our outward appearance attractive, but what is in our hearts is even more important. The way we are deep down (where others can't see) matters much to God. What are you like inside? When people become Christians, God makes them different on the inside. He will continue the process of change inside them if they only ask. God wants us to seek healthy thoughts and motives, not just healthy food and exercise."
Jesus concluded that sexually immoral behaviour is something that comes out of the heart, and to engage in sexual immorality would make a person unclean. Now, how do we know what is sexually immoral? We know what is sexually immoral by the moral laws handed down to us in the Old Testament, which, as I've already shown, Jesus fully affirmed, and, which includes homosexual activity. So, to engage in such acts would make a person unclean. In other words, you'd be sinning to engage in such things. But on one other note, the above passage makes it clear that if our hearts belong to God, we will strive to follow and obey his teachings. And in doing so, we should not find that to be a burden, but a joy, because it is pleasing to God. Out of our love for God, we should find it pleasing ourselves to obey Him in all things, purely because it pleases Him.
Feetxxxl, I would ask you this: Do you consider sin to be what Jesus considered it to be? If not, then please explain yourself. I would very much like to know.
I would also like to know why you seem to believe two people can't display a great love for each other unless they have sex with each other. You seem to imply that sex is the only real way for two people to express love. First off, sex was given to mankind by God as an expression of love and a means of procreation between two people (a man and a woman) joined together in marriage. You'll find that in the book of Genesis. And it is affirmed in God's moral laws, which Jesus and His apostles reaffirmed. Any sexual act committed outside of marriage is considered sinful according to God. It doesn't matter if the two people love each other or not. If those two people truly love God, they'll obey Him and abstain from sexual acts outside of marriage. If they do love each other, they'll find other, more godly ways, of expressing their love for each other. It's as simple as that.
I will just say, yet again, that love does not equal sex. Love is more than just that. And I'll also say, again, that just because two people love each other, it doesn't mean they should have sex with each other.
You say, "how is it you can put so much specificity on some issues and inference on others in such a one sided way. and why do you put much emphasis on the law and so little emphasis on love and on the spirit and the fruit of the spirit, which paul says thru christ we are led by and are to serve of." All I have ever tried saying is that the law and love go hand in hand. One does not do away with the other. Both are important. If it seems I am overemphasizing one thing over another, it is only because of the one or the other that we are specifically talking about.
You say, "and lastly when i think of all the things that make up a relationship, love, honesty, trust, devotion, respect,,,,,,,,,the embacing of the fruit of the spirit.................loving one another in the way that christ loved us. to say that if you have all these lead to sexual intimacy under vows of marriage, but this item of sexual intimacy negates it all, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and puts an incredible over emphasis on the power of sex so as to create unhealthy approach to our own sexuality as well as to to life and living." I have never said that sex negates all of those other very endearing relational qualities. Sex, in such a case, does not take away from the rest. It simply adds something negative to the rest. But it by no means makes the rest something bad. It in itself is what is bad.
You also say, "i've always thought that sex was a natural expression of intimacy when all these other factors were in place. and a less than healthy way of living to do it, when they weren't." You're right, but only in the confines of marriage. Any sexual act outside of marriage is sinful. For anyone outside of marriage, there are many wonderful and nonsexual ways of expressing intimacy. Such as a hug, a pat on the back, a warm remark, an act of love or kindness, spending time together--all of these are acts of intimacy, which in a lot of cases can be so much more meaningful and greater than the act of sex.
You say, "in the area of holiness my understanding, about holiness in christ, was that there is nothing that we can do to make ourselves holy, rather it was christ living inside us that made us holy. living holy lives means making choices that honors the spirit that lives in us." The spirit that lives in you, if you are of Christ, is the Holy Spirit, which is of God. You do not honor the Spirit, but you are guided by it. You honor God by being led by the Spirit to follow God's teachings. And since the Spirit is of God, the Spirit will not lead you away from God's teachings. If you think that is what is happening in your case, perhaps it is not the Spirit you are listening to, but something else.
Lastly you quote Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?" I would like very much so to say that I have indeed repented of all my sins. Because of the Holy Spirit within me, I have been nudged by God to do so. Homosexuality is one of the things I have been nudged by God to do away with in my life. I never found anything of any true and lasting benefit out of acting out homosexually, but that didn't stop me from going ahead and engaging in those things because it was of my sinful nature to want to do so. Those things came very naturally to me. It was God, however, His Spirit living within me, that showed me the sinfulness of my actions. I struggle now with my sexuality, because my sinful nature tells me one thing, whereas the Spirit of the Lord tells me another. I have a battle within me to do what my sinful nature requires, verses what the Lord requires. I think I can quote the apostle Paul for a moment and say that homosexuality is my "thorn in the flesh", and I have to constantly battle with myself over that. But because of my love for God, I do my best to honor Him by obeying His teachings, rather than pleasing myself by obeying my sinful nature. It is the Spirit which leads me into this battle. Without it, there would be no battle. I'd be gayer than a broadway play and it's as simple as that.
I wonder, do you have anything you need to repent of? Are you truly listening to and being led by the Spirit of the living God?
first of all i dont see any sin in being as gay as a broadway play. when i pray i hear the holy spirit praising god for homosexuals. does your being say that jesus is not lord. do you love any less or do you love any more? do you love yourself more? i personnally see no conflict with being gay. maybe you can explain how being gay means you love yourself any less. let me put it another way. if you were a parent and your child was gay would you stop loving him in any way. what is it about being gay that comes against christ. what is the spirit of the essence of being gay that comes against the love of christ.
witchcraft was listed in galatians5 as being of the sin nature. you remember salem. when was it against christ to burn them at the stake, as direct4d by the law. it only stopped 200 years ago.
is slavery an evil when did it become so after paul. it only stopped 150 years ago.
jesus was a good jew. to be a good jew you participated in stoning. did jesus ever participate in a stoning.
why DO you continue to put yourself under the law and pick and chose what levitican law you are going to obey, when paul said the fulfillment of the law is love, and when you love you fulfill it every day.
ROMANS 13:8[ Love Your Neighbor ] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
ROMANS13:10Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
law now is about conscious
ROMANS 3:2020Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
CONSCIOUS OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, BECAUSE THAT IS THE SUMMATION OF THE LAW. IF YOU ATTEMPT TO FOLLOW THE LAW YOU RECEIVE NO SALVATION OR RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE RIGHTEOUSNES THAT NOW IS, IS APART FROM THE LAW. ITS RECEIVED THRU GRACE THRU FAITH.EPESIANS 2:8-9 FAITH THAT THE CRUCIFICTION OF OUR LORD COVERS ALL OUR SINS. NOT FAITH THAT WE NOW KNOW ALL OUR SINS AND WILL BE ABLE TO REPENT OF THEM.
the majority of the sacrifices in lev was for UNKNOWN SIN. THE PHARASEES CREDITED THEMSELVES AS BEING EXPERTS ABOUT SIN...........LOOK WHAT THEY DID WITH IT. SURELY WE ARE NOT SEEKING TO BE LIKE A PHARISEES.
surely we are not attempting to credit ourselves with being more knowledgeable about sin than the jews that came before us. and surely not because of the law.
..........romans 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
if paul can say this, can we say any less.
i am have a hard time understanding why you are having difficulty not embracing fulfilling the law daily thru love over following it, which can be done for thousands of different reasons none of which is love.
what is it about your understanding of love that says that even if I fulfill the law thru love(which is living in and like christ) i must still put my self under it. are you familiar with 1cor13 and romans 12
what is in the essence of being gay that is against loving your neighbor as your self and loving one another as i have loved you?
brandon
because of the sensitve nature of the issue at hand, feel free to contact me at feetxxxl@sbcglobal.net
Feetxxxl,
I don't think there is anything wrong about a person being gay/homosexual/bi/whatever. Though I don't think it's very wise for a Christian to label themselves after their sin or what sin they are tempted by. The only thing I am calling sin is when a person gives into their temptations. An average straight person would probably say that I am a homosexual because of my attractions. I don't see anything wrong with that. But if I was a "homosexual" who acts out on my "homosexual" feelings, that acting out is sinful. I have already explained why.
You say: "if you were a parent and your child was gay would you stop loving him in any way. what is it about being gay that comes against christ. what is the spirit of the essence of being gay that comes against the love of christ." No, if my child was gay I would not stop loving them. Nor would I stop loving them if they acted on their feelings. But I would be disappointed if they gave into their feelings. And that is the same as God. God does not hold our temptations against us--he sympathizes with us about that--but he does hold it against us when we sin against him, and on the day of judgement, we will have to explain our actions. Being gay does not come against Christ, but sinning homosexually does. We hurt God when we do things he has clearly told us not to do.
You say: "jesus was a good jew. to be a good jew you participated in stoning. did jesus ever participate in a stoning." No, he did not. In fact, we are told that he saved one particular woman from being stoned, because he believed in forgiving people of their sins and giving them a second chance. But we are also told that he commanded that woman to "Go and sin no more". Jesus is forgiving, but he does expect us to do our very best not to sin. How could you think anything other than that from the story in question?
You mention slavery, witchcraft, burning people at the stake and things like that. I personally believe the Bible makes it clear that none of that is a good thing. Slavery, to my knowledge, is never condemned in the Bible outright, but many stories and passages seem to hint very strongly that it should be condemned. And of course we should never burn people at the stake. What a horrible thing that is! I certainly don't think Christ would ever condone such a wretched punishment upon a person.
You say: "i am have a hard time understanding why you are having difficulty not embracing fulfilling the law daily thru love over following it, which can be done for thousands of different reasons none of which is love."
As I have already explained, I don't believe we are under the law, but under grace. But even under grace, we are still expected to live righteous lives as Jesus did. At least we are to TRY our best to live righteous lives, and when we mess up, we can always go back to Jesus and ask for forgiveness. And he will forgive us. However, His grace does not excuse us to sin. If we truly love God, we will not sin.
You say: "what is it about your understanding of love that says that even if I fulfill the law thru love(which is living in and like christ) i must still put my self under it. are you familiar with 1cor13 and romans 12" This goes along with what I'd just said. We are not under the law, but under grace. But if we truly love God, we will still try not to sin. It's as simple as that.
Feetxxxl, I am curious about what you consider to be sin. You seem to imply that anything done out of love is not sinful. If that's the case, is it sinful for a father and son to have sex with each other as an expression of their love? Or is it sinful if two people commit adultery with each other because they love each other? You know, I've already explained this love issue well enough, I think. Love does not justify sin. And if we sin for that reason, then we do not truly love God. Sin equals hatred for God. That's what it is. When God tells us not to do something, and we do it anyway, we tell him that we care more about what we want than what he wants. We slap him in the face, so to speak. Yes, we are to love people, but not through sinful ways. If two men love each other, that's great. But their love does not make it okay or right for them to have sex with each other.
Feetxxxl,
One more thing about love. Here is what Jesus said is the greatest of the commandments: "Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the girst and greatest commandment. And the secon is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:34-40)
If we are to love God first and foremost, then shouldn't an expression of our love for Him, come before our love for others? Shouldn't we always, first and foremost express our love for him by following his teachings and doing our best not to sin against him? And secondly, how are we loving others if we bring them to sin against God? It takes two to tango, so both help each other sin in that regard. How is that loving someone, or God, when you help them do things which hurts God?
i have never spoken with anyone who so focused on sin. obviously you didnt 1cor13..............why, i have know idea. i also gave you romans 12 you obviously didnt read that either.
that is what you have in common with those who are so focused on sin...............a very low opinion of love.
even though 1cor13 says that anything without love is nothing. all knowledge..............
i mentioned godly sadness of 2cor7
ill mention it again. the guilt of this world leads to death.
do you think that guilt leads us to be of the spirit?please annotate, if you know of a scripture that says it does
my own understanding is that we cannot serve the law and the serve of the spirit. the spirit being about love. 1john4 god is love. they are two masters........inevidibly we will love one and dispise the other.
how is it you have not followed up on any of your comments or my questions about your being gay.
is it your intention to deal with an issue by dancing around it.
yes....... there might be a conflict between agape and philio(friendship love) or agape and eros (sexual attraction love) but not agape love of god and agape love of loving one another(as called by christ).........because both are of the same spirit. and where they are of the same spirit one reenforces the other.
Feetxxxl,
You say: "how is it you have not followed up on any of your comments or my questions about your being gay." What are you talking about? If you want me to be specific about my past sex life, I'm sorry, but you're not going to get detail accounts of that. If you're interested in knowing some of my past, read some of my past posts.
And now I ask you, Why have you not answered my question about what you consider to be sin? I have asked you to explain that two or three times now and you seem to refuse to do so. I have also asked you many other things which you have refused to answer. I, to my knowledge and to the best of my ability, have tried to answer EVERY question you have asked me. Why do you not return the favor?
You say: "i have never spoken with anyone who so focused on sin. obviously you didnt 1cor13..............why, i have know idea. i also gave you romans 12 you obviously didnt read that either.
that is what you have in common with those who are so focused on sin...............a very low opinion of love."
I personally take offense at this. Have you completely ignored everything I have told you. My focus is not nearly on sin as it is on love. My love for God is so great that I choose not to sin. I choose Him over the lies that the devil has fed me. I choose Him over the desires of my sinful flesh. And that is out of love. My main focus IS on love--love for God, which Jesus tells us is the greatest of all commandments. Do you not see that? And even Jesus himself was concerned about the sin in peoples lives. People do sin and people are expected to rid their lives of sinful behavior. Do you disregard all of the passages in which Jesus pushed people not to sin? I'll be honest with you, from our conversations I have to conclude that your concept of love is sex and sex alone. You have an altered view of what love is. And I believe you must think that nothing a Christian does can be called sin. You are foolish to think such things. And you clearly do not understand the Spirit either. The Spirit will never lead a person to sin. If the "Spirit" as you say makes you believe that homosexual sex is okay, then you're clearly listening to something other than the Spirit. The Spirit is given to help people NOT sin and to guide them. Not to think that sin is okay.
im looking for essence and you think i want the sordid details. what would that do? you can sin as a homosexual just as you as a heterosexal.
i really dont think about sin much. what i do concern myself with is being of christ and of the spirit and of the fruit of the spirit. its more a glass half full approach.
the last time i dealt with the issue of sin was 2 days ago. a friend of mine, is an alcoholic accused me of judging him for his alcoholism.
after a discussion i admitted i had and that it was wrong and i apologized. we hugged. i felt a great weight had been lifted from me and that our relationship had been restored.
i had become stuck in my own anger and frustration and had allowed it become an obstacle to our fellowship.
Feetxxxl,
What exactly do you mean by "essence"? What do you want to know?
You say: "i really dont think about sin much. what i do concern myself with is being of christ and of the spirit and of the fruit of the spirit. its more a glass half full approach." That's not a bad thing really. In fact, it's good that you keep your mind on God like that. But you should also know God's word as well, and you should always strive to live as Christ did. How can we call ourselves Christians if we don't do our best to live our lives as He did?
As for judgement, pointing out someone else's sin is not judging them. It is simply bringing attention to their sin so that they recognize it and will hopefully repent of it. Now, if you were brought to anger and was throwing your friend's sin in his face and treating him harshly because of it, then yeah, you were judging him. That's trying to look inside your friend's heart, and only God can do that. But to simply point out someone's sin is not judging them. It's pointing out the noticable.
I am glad you made ammends with your friend. :)
just as in romans 1 i knew that my anger and bitterness was against christ. but yet even knowing it, felt compelled to nurse my anger because he had acted out his alcoholism against me.
it wasnt until he confronted me that i felt compelled to own, what i knew to be of christ.
brandon
rik couldnt handle the one on one confrontation. here is the last exchange. feel free to ask any questions or make any comments and if possible annotate.
my comments are in capitol letters, rik's are regular size.
feel free to delete the entire email.
This will be my final post on this debate and I will disengage the comments section thereafter. It is not that I am unwilling to continue a dialogue, but this is not the purpose of this journal and Feetxxl needs to do his own homework and read the other works that I have mentioned. I am more than happy to continue this discussion via e-mail.
“Feetxxl” claims in a recent response, “my standard for love is 1cor13”
The problem is he takes his definition of “love” and then pours it into this text because he is reading this text along with his second claimed text “for loving one another is romans 12” to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible. Anybody can take one or two texts, slap them together and ignore the rest of the New Testament moral laws (not to mention the Old Testament moral law which the New Testament endorses and enforces repeatedly) and then come up with their definition of “love.” The fact is 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 are not the “end all” or “all there is to say” about love. I have repeatedly cited Jesus and the apostle’s endorsement and enforcement of Old Testament moral laws which include all the commandments regarding sex acts but he ignores these. This is how I know he is not defining “love” according to the Bible but according to his own definition.
THE POINT WAS THAT 1COR13 AND ROMANS 12 WERE THE ESSENCE OF LOVE AND LOVING ONE ANOTHER , NOT NECESSARILY THE END, BUT THAT ALL THAT IS ADDED SUPPORTS AND ALIGNS WITH THESE 2 SOURCES.
Feetxxl then quotes a text regarding the doctrine of justification:, “romans 3: 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
I absolutely agree that no one is justified (declared righteous) because of accruing any merit by doing good works (contra Roman Catholicism), being circumcised (the issue at hand in Acts 15 and Paul epistles) as the Pharisees taught for they were Jesus’ and Paul’s opposition. But neither shall anyone be justified without any good works and those who continue in sin and want to claim grace as a license to do sin will not inherit the kingdom of God:
WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THIS?
"But neither shall anyone be justified without any good works"
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor men who have sex with other men, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" THAT'S RIGHT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD THRU THE NEW COVENANT, "GRACE THRU FAITH", NOT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MAN OF THE OLD COVENANT THRU FOLLOWING THE LAW.
ROMANS 3:28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith(ARE YOU SAYING THAT FAITH IS WORKS) apart from observing the law.
Paul enforces the law regarding incest from Leviticus chapters 18 and 20 in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, then denounces those acts which are prohibited in Leviticus 18 and 20 in 1 Corinthians 6 and then teaches the Biblical-creation view of marriage and sex in 1 Corinthians chapter 7. Paul’s use of the Old Testament moral law (which at the time was the only Bible the Christians had until the canon was complete just before 70 A.D.) for instructing the church could not be any clearer.
WHATEVER HE TEACHES, HE DOES FROM AN ESSENCE OF A SPIRIT MENTALITY OF HOW SUCH ACTIONS COME AGAINST LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF..............RATHER THAN A BIBLE SAYS" MENTALITY.
YOU HAVE NEVER SAID HOW THE SPIRIT OF THE ESSENCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY COMES AGAINST THE SPIRIT ESSENCE OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
NO ACT CAN BE A SIN UNLESS THE SPIRIT OF THE ESSENCE OF THAT ACT IS A SIN. UNDER THE OLD COVENANT IT WAS MERELY THE ACT ITSELF THAT WAS JUDGED.
UNDER THE NEW COVENANT EVEN IF A MAN MURDERS ANOTHER, A SIN IS DETERMINED BY THE SPIRIT OF THE ACT.......................THE SAME WAY THAT COURTS ASSUAGE GUILT OR INNOCENCE BY DETERMINING THE SPIRIT OF INTENT.
Those who merely HEAR God’s law will not be justified. It is those who hear, believe and seek to obey God’s law because they have true faith will be justified, “for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Romans 2:13)
"Those who merely HEAR God’s law will not be justified. It is those who hear, believe and seek to obey God’s law because they have true faith will be justified, "
WHERE IS THIS IN SCRIPTURE AND WHAT IS ITS RELATIONSHIP TO 1COR6:11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
ROMANS 2: 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
PAUL IS MAKING A COMPARISON BETWEEN THOSE WHO HAVE THE LAW TO OBEY AND THOSE WHO DONT. THAT EVEN THOSE WHO DONT HAVE THE LAW BUT LIVE ACCORDING TO WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY. THE RIIGHTEOUSNESS PAUL IS REFERING TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE OLD COVENANT, NOT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS APART FROM THE LAW
DEUT 6:25And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." (MOSES'S WORDS)
If you are actively living in sin as a fornicators, an idolaters, an adulterer, a male prostitutes, a man who have sex with another man and so forth you will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Those who have been born of God CANNOT continue to practice sin.
“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in
him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” (1 John 3:9)
BELOW IS THE WHOLE SCRIPTURE................................
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
DO SUPPOSE YOU CAN CLAIM THE LOVE OF CHRIST WITHOUT THE FELLOWSHIP OF ROMANS 12 OR 1JOHN1
You cannot continue to live in heterosexual or homosexual sin and think that you will not suffer the consequences, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” (Galatians 6:7)
MY PREMISE IS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY HAS NEVER BEEN DECLARED BY SCRIPTURE TO BE A SIN. YES THERE ARE TRANSLATIONS THAT HAVE TRANSPOSED A 19TH CENTURY TERM INTO A 2000YEAR OLD TEXT, BUT THIS TRANSPOSITION IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE GREEK THAT IS TRANSLATED.
AND IN LEV NOT ALL PROHIBITONS OF THEMSELVES WERE SINS. AND SURELY THE CONDONING OF SLAVERY, IN FACT SLAVERY FOR LIFE, IS PART OF THE MORAL CODE.
MY PREMISE DOES NOT STAND ON THE MISTRANSLATIONS SO MUCH AS ON THE ESSENCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY ITSELF. AND I SAY THIS HAVING FELLOWSHIPPED WITH BELIEVERS THAT HAPPEN TO BE HOMOSEXUAL. THERE IS NO "OBVIOUS" (GAL5) SPIRIT OF THE ESSENCE OF SAME SEX BONDING OR ORIENTATION THAT IS ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE SPIRIT ESSENCE OF BONDING AND ORIENTATION OF HETEROSEXUALITY............ OR THE SPIRIT OF THESSENCE OF IT AGAINST CHRIST OR THE SUMMATION OF THE LAW.................."LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"
IF IT IS.......... THEN TELL ME HOW..
In Romans 3-4 Paul is building a case that we are justified by faith just as Abraham was BEFORE he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6). Read the context! All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and we know this because that though the law is good and holy from it comes the knowledge of sin (because it is good and we are evil cf. Romans 7:7). But no where does the New Testament tell us that once the moral law has declared to us that we are a sinner that we can then throw the moral law away because it no longer remains a standard for right living. In fact, the very next text Feetxxl quotes proves my point:
I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THROWING AWAY THE LAW, WHICH PAUL SAYS IS HOLY. THAT IS YOUR PREMISE ......YOU KEEP ATTEMPTING TO MAKE.
“romans 13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."”
The summary of the law does not do away with the list of commandments which Paul is himself listing. In fact, he is saying that if you truly love you will obey the commandments which he is listing as well as the other moral commandments (which includes those concerning sex acts) which are summed by the law of love. I have already stated over and over again that it is fallacious to use a law from an Old Testament “thou shalt not” list which tells us to love as a means to then get rid of the other moral laws which both Jesus and the apostles fully endorse and enforce.
HERE AGAIN THE SUMMATION OF THE LAW IS THE SPIRIT ESSENCE OF THE LAW, JUST AS THE SPIRIT OF THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW IS LOVE. SHOW HOW THE ESSENCE OF THOSE RULES IS NOT ABOUT LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
DIDNT YOU AGREE THAT IF DAVID LOVED HIS NEIGHBOR THINGS WOULD HAVE COME OUT DIFFERENTLY IN HIS DEALINGS WITH BATHSHEBA?
Feetxxl then states, “therefore the law is for conscious, conscious about loving your neighbor as yourself.:
"THEREFORE THE LAW IS FOR OUR BEING CONSCIOUS OF WHETHER WE ARE LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELF
The law is for conscious? Here is what the word “conscious” means: “aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.” A person who is awake is conscious and a person who is asleep or in a comma is unconscious. Can you tell me what the law has to do with being awake or asleep? Can you tell me where the Bible says anything about the law having to do with being awake or asleep? I have already pointed out that you are misusing this word and yet you continue to do so. The fact that I have to keep repeating myself demonstrates that you really aren’t taking the time to read what I have written, think about it and then think through the issues at hand. Please re-read all my previous posts slowly and carefully. Think about them and pray about them with the Bible in hand.
Feetxxl then asks, “in your final comments please include comments about the relationships between laws and covenants. what is the relationship of the law to the covenants that come after them.”
First, do you even know what a covenant is? I seriously doubt that you do and so to rightly answer this question would take hundreds of pages. But for the sake of answering your question here goes...
There are two overarching covenants in history:
The first overarching covenant was made with Adam whose name means “man.”. This covenant made in the Garden of Eden required that he believe God’s Word and obey His commands to do such things as take dominion over the earth, be fruitful and multiply and not eat from the the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam failed to take dominion over the serpent and the result was his wife was deceived, she then gave him the forbidden fruit which he ate which then plunged himself and all of creation into sin.
The second overarching covenant covenant is like this one. God told the serpent that he would be crushed by another man (another Adam) who would be of the seed of the woman. (Genesis 3:15) This covenant is then developed over thousands of years from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David and then finally in Christ. The righteousness of the second Adam (Jesus Christ) and His one act atoned for the first Adam so that all of those who are in the second Adam are now no longer in the first Adam .(Romans 5; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The New Covenant is the telos, the consummation, the goal of the Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant.
All the post-fall covenants were designed to lead us to the New Covenant in Christ. This is the entire thesis of the Epistle to the Hebrews. This epistle then tells us that because of Christ things such as the temple, the priesthood, the sacrifices and so forth are no longer binding because they were mere types and shadows. But no where does it tell us that the moral requirements of the law are no longer binding.
All of these covenants developed through redemptive-history have requirements: Faith, obedience to the revealed law of God, and they they have have promises and warnings along with accompanying signs (sacraments and feast days).
None of the covenants do away with the moral laws from the preceding covenant. The ONLY thing that changes are the types, shadows and signs (sacraments and feast days).
HERE AGAIN YOU KEEP ON THIS DOING AWAY WITH THE LAW......................THAT WAS NEVER PART OF THE DISCUSSION. THE DISCUSSION WAS WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN SAID IN ROMANS 7.......................
5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code
. ROMANS6.......................
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace
What I have said here would take a great deal of time to spell out and defend. What you need to do is read good books on covenant theology and the law. When you are done come back and ask more questions. Here is a free book that I would recommend titled “By This Standard”:
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/gbbs/gbbs.html
Feetxxl then states, “its agreed that jesus never participated in a stoning, but the laws of all the covenants up to christ, directed believers that stoning was an act of holiness.”
Have you not read what I already stated? No, you have not. Nor have you paid one iota of attention to what Christ says. The Pharisees did away with God’s laws with their traditions. In contrast Jesus upheld God’s law which INCLUDED the penal sanction, such as the putting to death the rebellious child (Mark 7: 9-13)
Feetxxl then states, “witchcraft was included in as a moral sin, part of the sin nature in gal 5. were all the witches burned at the stake after christ against christ? they were following the law, when did such a practice come against christ. the point im making is that after christ, everything is judged thru the spirit which you refuse to discuss thru your continued attempt to put yourself and others under the law. the law and the spirit are 2 masters in that (you're going to have a field day misquoting this) you cannot not serve UNDER the law and serve OF the spirit....................you will love one and despise the other.”
I have already discussed what it means and does not mean to be “under the law.” You have not read or have not comprehended what I have already written. Nor do you understand what it means to be lead by the spirit. You cannot justifiably say you are being lead by the Holy Spirit to live in sin. The Holy Spirit breathed out God’s moral law in both Testaments as Paul says:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 timothy 3:16-17)
Feetxxl then complains, “case and point i clearly mentioned 1cor 13 in regards to love, but you spent half your disertation saying how my understanding of love was to do what feels good. it wasnt just an attempt to misquote, you were really expressing your negative feelings for those who talk about love, and try use it as guide to follow the righteousness that is apart from the law.”
Notice how he is pitting his feelings against my argument from the text but attributes my arguments to my feelings? I have no negative feelings about those who talk about love. I do think negatively and does God concerning those who want to justify their sin by calling it love which they define by their own autonomous reasoning and then isolate two texts from the entirety of Scripture to justify their definition. You cannot commit adultery, fornication or homosexuality and justify it with 1 Corinthians 13 or Romans 12. By the way, merely citing a text is not an argument. You need to explain why the text proves your point.
MY UNDERSTANDING IS EVERY HUMAN ACT IS OF AN UNDERLYING SPIRIT. IN TRUTH WE SIN BECAUSE OF THE SINFUL SPIRIT THAT IS IN US. THE ACT IS MERELY AN EXPRESSION OF THE SPIRIT THAT WE ARE GIVEN OVER TO.
DOES NOT SCRIPTURE SAY OUR BATTLE IS NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD BUT POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES?
WHEN WE CONFESS WE NOT ONLY TO THE ACT BUT THE SPIRIT IN HEARTS THAT LED US TO COMMIT THE ACT.
ROMANS 8: 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
SINCE IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT PRESIDES BEFORE THE ACT THAT IT INITIATES IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT IS OUR FIRST CONCERN. BECAUSE WITHOUT THE SPIRIT THE ACT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
IN THE CASE OF THE SIN OFOMISSION, WE ALLOW ANOTHER SPIRIT TRANSPOSE THE LOVE OF CHRIST IN US.
1 JOHN 3.................. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
IF YOU KNOW THE ABOVE IS TRUE WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO DISCUSS THE SPIRIT.
.Romans 12:9-21 and 1 Corinthians is not all there is to say about love or how to live. To do so is to “cherry pick” which texts you want to obey and which ones you do not. In faith I want to obey EVERY moral command and avoid EVERY sin in the New Testament - not just a few texts that don’t talk about the sins I want to commit.
PICK NOTHING......IF THOSE SCRIPTURES ARE ABOUT LOVE AND LOVING ONE ANOTHER ANYTHING ADDED WILL BE IN ACCORD WITH THE ESSENCE OF THOSE SCRIPTURES
Feetxxl complains, “you still refuse to explain how any words of any scripture, apart from lev, says homosexuality is a sin. because they dont say it that clearly?
MY APOLOGIES. THEY SAY IT VERY CLEARLY IN ALL THE NEW KING JAMES VERSION, ALL THE AMERICAN STANDARD VERSIONS,ALL THE ENGLISH AND ENGLISH STANDARD VERSIONS, AND HOLMAN VERSIONS. BUT IN THESE IT WAS ONLY DONE BY TRANSPOSING A NINETENTH CENTURY TERM INTO A 2000 YEAR OLD TEXT. THIS IS PARTICULARLY DISQUIETING WHEN KNOWING THE HOMOPHOBIA THAT WAS EXISTING AT THE TIME. IN OTHER WORDS IT APPEARS TO BE AN UNCONSCIOUS ATTEMPT BY THOSE WHO WERE HOMOPHOBIC THEMSELVES TO PERPETUATE THEIR OWN BIAS.
How am I homophobic? I have discussed the meaning of Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 from the original language not just an English translation. I never merely quote an English translation without taking into consideration the original languages. I have painstakingly done so which is very evident if you have paid any attention to what I have written. What is funny is how a man who wants to have sex with another man (post 19th century English translation” homosexual”) wants to call anyone who says that homosexual sex a sin a “homophobe.” I have no fear of fornicators, adulterers or homosexuals. I myself struggle with homosexual temptations but I do not define myself by my temptations. The problem is you have classified “homosexual” as a natural alternative to heterosexual and claimed it as your identity. Then, once someone speaks against the homosexual sex act you take it personally because you feel like they are attacking your identity.
ALREADY ANSWERED
I completely understand how you feel!
I too am angered by true homophobes who have no love for those enslaved to sin and instead just hold up signs that say, “God hates fags” and teach that there is no repentance for them. You ought to go back to the very beginning of my blog and read it from May 2007 onward as I address this very issue. Honestly, if I could justify having a homosexual lifestyle with the Bible I probably would. But it can’t be justifiably done without dismissing the authority and inerrancy of Scripture or seriously violating the basic tenants of hermeneutics.
I have read 29 books on Gay Theology and just received 5 more in the mail. I will probably read another 30 or so in the next year. I have done my homework. Have you?
I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THE ANTI-GAYS REFUSE TO HAVE ANY PART IN DISCUSSION OF THE ESSENCE OF HOMOSEXUALITY. THE LIMIT OF THEIR ABILITY TO DISCUSS IT, IS "THE BIBLE SAYS" APPROACH. AND IM JUST TALKING ABOUT JUST DISCUSSION. VERY FEW HAVE HAD FELLOWSHIP IN CHRIST WITH HOMOSEXUALS, LET ALONE A RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY COULD HAVE AN EXCHANGE OF UNDERSTANDINGS...................YOU KNOW LIKE HONORING EACH OTHERS LIFE EXPERIENCES...........AT A PARTICULAR TIME IN MY LIFE I FELT, EXPERIENCED, SAW ETC THIS.
When you say, “YOU KNOW LIKE HONORING EACH OTHERS LIFE EXPERIENCES...........AT A PARTICULAR TIME IN MY LIFE I FELT, EXPERIENCED, SAW ETC THIS.” You are essentially making an existential argument for how you define love and justify your homosexual sin. This is EXACTLY the situational ethics of Joseph Fletcher. You want to disregard the clear teaching of Scripture on the basis of your existential experience. This is EXACTLY what the Gay apologist Dan Via does and so he repeatedly disregards what the ENTIRETY of Scripture teaches on this issue at hand. Our experiences do not define love nor are they an epistemologically justifiable means of defining morality, ethics or love.
OF COURSE BUT HONORING EACH OTHERS LIFE EXPERIENCES IS. ITS NOT A MATTER OF THE TRUTH, ONLY THAT THE ONE WHO GIVES WITNESS BELIEVES THAT IT BE TRUE, THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE HONORING. THAT DOESNT TAKE AWAY YOUR DISCERNMENT AS TO WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT ...................YOU ARE QUITE FREE TO DISAGREE AS ITS TRUTH.
THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOUR DISAGREEMENT COMES FROM THE SPIRIT OF THE WITNESS, NOT FROM DISAGREEMENT WITH YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM...................REMEMBER........LED BY AND SERVEOF THE SPIRIT.
Sir, you are very ignorant in regards to what “anti-gays” (as you call them) have done in the discussion of the “essence of homosexuality.”
Sir, I know Christians who have come out of homosexuality and are living happy lives as changed men with a wife and family. I also know the pain of a man with AIDS who repented of his homosexuality and was abandoned by the homosexual community and was loved by the church. Sadly, I also know the pain of a man with AIDS who was abandoned by the church and cared for by he homosexual community. I was a member of a church where the pastor minister to men with AIDS in the hospital and his church was fire bombed by people from the surrounding gay community. There has been much sin and a lack of love (defined by God’s Word) on both sides. I urge you to take the time to listen to and read the book “Loving Homosexuals as Jesus Would” by Chad Thompson. There is a link on the margin of my web site.
I know that my strong pronouncements against the folly of homosexuality sounds harsh and unloving. But I do love you. I love you enough to tell you the truth!
The Bible in Romans 1:26-27 calls homosexual sex a “degrading passion” “contrary to nature” an “indecent act” which “receives a due penalty” for what? For their “error.” The word “error” is “planehs” it means to deviate from what is right. What does the word “sin” mean? The Greek word for “sin” is “harmartia.” What does this word mean? Its root meaning is the same as “planehs” which is an “error in judgment.” In both cases the words are used to mean to err in relation to morality and ethics - to deviate from God’s order and standard for holiness. Therefore, “planehs” is a synonym for “harmartia.” Homosexual sex is clearly a sin regardless of your feelings, experiences and so forth.
I HAVE NO DISAGREEMENT THAT BEHAVIOR 0F 26-27 IS SINFUL.....IT IS AN ABANDONMENT OF WHAT WAS GIVEN IN THE SPIRIT...........AN ABANDONMENT MOTIVATED BY SHAME BASED LUST..............
THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT SINS TAKE PLACE IN THE COMMISSION OF SAME SEX ACTS, NO MORE THAN THAN SINS IN THE COMMISSION OF OPPOSITE SEX ACTS. BUT IF THE SINS IN 1 AND 2 SAMUEL DONT CONDEMN HETEROSEXUALITY, WHY SHOULD THE SINS OF ROMANS1 CONDEMN HOMOSEXUALITY.
THE SHAME BASED LUST IS ABOUT RELATIONS, NOT RELATIONSHIPS(LOVING ONE ANOTHER) BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF LUST TRANSPOSES THE SPIRIT OF LOVE. THERE IS NO COMMITMENT TO A PERSON, THE OTHER PERSON IS APPRECIATED ONLY FOR THE SAKE SATIATING THE LUST. A LUST MOST LIKELY OF OBSESSION OBSESSION AND OBSESSION WITH SEXUAL PLEASURE.
WHAT RESEMBLANCE COULD THIS HAVE TO HUMAN BONDING OF COMMITMENT BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE MOTIVATED BY MUTUAL RESPECT ATTRACTION, LOVE ,DEVOTION, AND TRUST............................THE SAME SPIRIT OF HETEROSEXUAL BONDING THAT IS AFFIRMED BY THE HETEROSEXUAL COMMUNITY.
IS THAT WHY YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT SPIRIT, BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF BONDING IS THE SAME. THINGS EQUAL TO THE SAME THING ARE EQUAL TO EACH OTHER.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH EXODUS OR SIMILAR MINISTRIES. I WOULD NEVER PUT A LIMIT ON THE SPIRIT. BUT ALL I HEAR ARE ABOUT ARE LIVES INDULGING IN PROMISCUITY AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE. WOULD NOT SPIRITUAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE BE THE SAME IF IT WAS ABOUT HETEROSEXUALS.
WHAT I HAVE NOT HEARD IS ABOUT ANYONE WHO HAD A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP,AND LIVED AN ADDICTIVE FREE LIFE,.
I also very clearly state that I too have been a fool and have committed a lot of homsexual-related sin. I do not write hypocritical judgments or fail to hold myself to the same standard. But I also will not soften the language of the Bible which calls fornication, adultery and a man having sex with another man a “sin” and condone the words and actions of a person who wants to use the Bible to justify his sin.
YET, IS THIS NOT THE ESSENCE OF FELLOWSHIP. AND CHRIST SAYS THAT IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER. IS PROACTIVELY DENYING FELLOWSHIP....................... OF CHRIST?
Sir, you are not walking in the light. You are walking in the depravity of your sin. You want to call darkness “light,” sin “love” and evil “good.”
Finally, why is it that you do not use proper punctuation? Why do you not use upper case letters when it is appropriate to do so? Why do you use words if you do not know what they mean? Why do you have very strange “......” in your sentences? We all make typoes, but have you ever thought of using a spell checker? You need to learn how to write proper English, how to formulate a logical argument, amd how to read a text of Scripture. You would be much more clear if you did so.
You also need to become more aware of what has already been written on this subject. I would like to recommend to you that you read the following books. After you do so, then feel free to send me an e-mail and we can continue this discussion.
LET ME REQUEST AGAIN. IN ROMANS 1:24- 27 WHAT LIE WAS EXCHANGED FOR WHAT TRUTH, AND HOW WAS THE CREATED WORSHIPPED AND SERVED SO THAT CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS WERE GIVEN OVER TO HOMOSEXUALITY.
i pulled this from the internet. if there is even a shred of truth to this article it shows the importance of...................... 1thess 5:21 test everything, keep the good.
THE QUESTION IS........... WHAT IS OUR TEST?
Rest assured that I'm no expert in the Greek language. The truth of the matter is there are days when fluent English escapes me. While studying the languages of the Bible are clearly helpful to a richer and more educated understanding of what lies within its pages, it's just as beneficial if you have the heart of an explorer. With that in mind, cast aside the studious burrows etched across your forehead and open your eyes wide to an adventure with words.
The first appearance of the word arsenokoitai in any ancient Greek literature is found in I Corinthians 6:9. While it might have been a word common in Paul's time, it can't be found anywhere else in material dated prior to or current with Paul that has already been discovered. It only begins to make its appearance in literature following Paul. An important tool in discovering the meaning of a word is to trace how it's been used previously but because arsenokoitai is invisible prior to I Corinthians this means of defining the word is missing. The times arsenokoitai is used following Paul seem dependent on Paul's usage of the word. In the Latin Vulgate that follows Paul some 500 years later, Jerome translates it as a male concubine although nothing in the word specifies whether the concubine was involved with a same-sex or opposite-sex individual. What we do know is at the time Paul was writing there were terms common for persons involved in homoeroticism and Paul chose to not use those words but to instead use a word that remains mysterious to us. What this means is that Greek scholars and theologians (among which you and I don't count ourselves) come to arsenokoitai with no previous context for understanding it's meaning and so the best that anyone, whether pro-gay or anti-gay can reason is a guess. In the early work the "New Testament and Homosexuality" Robin Scroggs comes to an understanding of arsenokoitai by looking at the two separate words it combines; arseno (men) and koitai (bed). From this Scroggs concluded that the literal meaning of arsenokoitai was "male bed" which he understood as descriptive of the active male (penetrator) in same-sex intercourse. The problem with this method of interpretation can be seen with examples in English like "lady-killer", "manhole" or "butterfly." You don't arrive at the true meaning of the word "butterfly" by defining the words "butter" and "fly" anymore than it's possible to define the accurate meaning of arsenokoitai by combining "male" and "bed."
malakoi is a word common to the Greek language which means "soft." Jesus uses the word malakoi when speaking of "a man dressed in soft (malakoi) raiment" (Matthew 11:8).
Historically, church tradition has often understood malakoi to imply a moral weakness. In antiquity however, malakoi was sometimes used as a descriptive word of eromenos. If you check back to the discussion on pederasty, you'll be reminded that eromenos was the passive partner in the pederastic relationship between an older mentor and the younger boy or the beloved. It was also used in a much broader sense than exclusive to a homoerotic relationship. malakoi also described those men who had too much sex with women. In ancient Rome, the effeminate looking man often presented himself that way to attract women rather than men because a feminine man would have been a turn off to men. In the ancient world being effeminate including such behavior as bathing frequently, shaving, frequent dancing or laughing, wearing cologne, eating too much or wearing fine undergarments! Effeminate is the best understanding of the word and in its cultural context was threatening to the whole structure of society by crossing the fragile line between man and woman in a world where to be male was to be superior and to be woman was to be intrinsically inferior. While being effeminate might have been deemed a sin in antiquity we would never consider preaching against the "sin of femininity" in a world where men are encouraged to get in touch with their more gentle side and where good hygiene, a pair of silk briefs and Old Spice After Shave would catapult the male populace in most churches into this category.
MALAKOI AND ARSENOKOITAI ON THE MAP
Some scholars would argue that where malakoi and arsenokoitai are located in these passages should be considered when attempting to understand their meaning. I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1: 9-10 are lists of vices. Vice lists appear through Paul's writings (Romans 1:29-31, Galatians 5:19-23, Colossians 3:18-4:1, Ephesians 5:21-6:9 and 2 Timothy 3:15) and was a common literary style in both Greco-Roman and Jewish literature (Homoeroticism in the Biblical World, page 113). Rather than being a random tossing together of sins, vice lists often appear to be in a categorical order as would seem apparent in both I Corinthians 6 and I Timothy 1.
I Corinthians 6 orders the vices as: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, malakoi,arsenokoitai, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners.
I Timothy 1 orders the vices as: murderers, manslayers, whoremongers, arsenokoitai, menstealers (slave traders), liars, perjurers.
In the essay Arsenokoites and Malakos: Meanings and Consequences, included in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality: Listening to Scripture, Dale Martin proposes that most vice lists, both in the Christian Testament and in ancient contemporary writings, separate vices in three categories: sexual sins, sins of violence and economic or injustice sins and he proposes that with this in mind, arsenokoitai, if referring to homosexuality doesn't normally appear in the category of sexual sins but is in, or on the edge of, the economic category. Though uncertain as to the date of this particular oracle, Martin provides a reading from Sibylline Oracle 2.70-77 that is labeled under the heading "On Justice."
"(Never accept in your hand a gift which derives from unjust deeds.) Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life.) (Do not arskenokoitein, do not betray information, do not murder.) Give one who has labored his wage. Do not oppress a poor man. Take heed of your speech. Keep a secret matter in your heart. (Make provision for orphans and widows and those in need.) Do not be willing to act unjustly, and therefore do not give leave to one who is acting unjustly." (page 120).
No sexual sin is listed in the above writing but all the sins are of economic injustice, whether through the oppression of the poor, the withholding of wages or accepting gifts from unjust deeds. It seems a possibility that in this context arskenokoitein refers to money earned through sexual behavior, which would also appear to make sense in that it follows prostitution (whoremongers, pornos) in I Timothy. Perhaps it has nothing to do with sex. It remains uncertain. Whether arsenokoitai is defined by this source in the same way as defined by Paul is equally uncertain. What is certain is that there seems sufficient evidence, or the lack thereof, to leave this word and it's appearance in I Corinthians 6 and I Timothy 1 as ambiguous in meaning. With so much uncertainty surrounding these words it's of painful concern that it's been used by some within the church with absolute rigidity to condemn gays and lesbians.
Feetxxxl,
As for the word Paul used, "arsenokoitai," that word is derived from two other words as have been mentioned. But the article you found on the internet fails to mention that that was a referrence back to the original texts in Leviticus relating to the prohibition of homosexual acts. Paul himself was trying to translate what he was reading from Leviticus. I'll allow you to research that for yourself. But I will again suggest that you buy and read the book "Desires In Conflict" by Joe Dallas. He explains most all of your questions pretty thoroughly in that book.
When you ask: "WHAT LIE WAS EXCHANGED FOR WHAT TRUTH, AND HOW WAS THE CREATED WORSHIPPED AND SERVED SO THAT CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS WERE GIVEN OVER TO HOMOSEXUALITY."
First off, homosexuality in itself is all one big lie. Lie number one: that I'm not a true male--that I'm not like other men, I'm different, as if something between woman and man, but neither being woman or man. Physically male, but mentally female, so to speak. That is a lie. A man is a man, and when he questions that, or believes he is not fully male, either mentally or physically, he is believing a lie. I have believed that lie. Because of that lie, I have envied other men. I have looked at them and longed for what I felt they had, but I did not. Because of that envy, I gradually, began lusting after other men. I was attracted to other men. And out of the attraction, I've given into homosexual acts. I exchanged the truth that I was male for a lie that I was something other than male. I then envied other men and put more focus on my attractions and lust on them than on God. And because of that, I gave into my homosexual temptations, disregarding God's teachings. I think all that goes along very well with what Romans 1 says. Don't you?
Apart from everything else, I will just say that I'm glad to move away from homosexuality. I really am. I've never found any happiness in it. And that's mostly because of the lies I talked about. But I've thought a lot about the concepts of love regarding a homosexual relationship. I've wondered if love would make things different, but I don't think that it would. I have a friend that I met a little over a year ago who also struggles with homosexuality. And I've grown to love him. I do love him. But that's as a friend. I think he's just a terrific person. And it has crossed my mind on occasion the possibility of us being together in the romantic sense. I've thought about that. But the thing is, deep down inside, I do feel that if we ever did become sexually involved with each other, even in a committed relationship, it would destroy our entire friendship. I can't explain that really, because if I were ever going to seek out a boyfriend, I know he'd make a really good one for me. But I just don't think it would ever work. I'd have to believe all those lies in order for it to work. I'd have to accept myself as a sort of feminine figure, and knowing that I'm physically male, there would always be a conflict for me. Personally, I'd much rather love my friend as a friend. I enjoy him so much as a friend. Thing is, I don't think I'd enjoy having him in my life in any other way. The greatest way I know of loving him is as a friend. And I feel more love from him in that way, than I know I ever could if we were in a sexual relationship with each other. Reason is, I've chosen not to believe in those lies and to live in the truth instead. Those lies don't do anything but tear me apart, and I'm so tired of believing in them.
brandon
this may sound too simplistic. but being a believer, it is my understanding that those of us who have a relationship with the holy spirit, have only to pray and ask whether it is of christ to marry a particular person. because there is nothing between ourselves and the other person, that the healing power of the holy spirit cant bring us thru.
"First off, homosexuality in itself is all one big lie. Lie number one: that I'm not a true male--that I'm not like other men, I'm different, as if something between woman and man, but neither being woman or man. Physically male, but mentally female, so to speak. That is a lie. A man is a man, and when he questions that, or believes he is not fully male, either mentally or physically, he is believing a lie."
thank you for your intimate sharing. i worship at an mcc 300 member church. i have never heard testamonies of that nature.
and have never detected a spirit of denial, deceit or delusion in the worship and fellowship.
what you are experiencing must be extremely taxing and my heart goes to you and your difficulty.
have you ever worshipped in a church with other believers who happened to be gay, and who shared your inheritance in christ. believers who thought their orientation was of christ ,rather that against him?
the thing that mistifies me that even after 400 years sexuality is still a mystery.
why is it that we cannot freely talk about this. just trying to find the words to explain my own sexuality is extremely difficult.
i dont understand my own attractions. there were periods of my life when i believed my sexuality was a curse. the only thing i can say now that any sexual relations i have in the future i want to be with someone i can embrace as a committed life pardner. i have no use for anything that resembles promiscuity.
the best marriages that i have been witness to in my life are those that evolved out of a previous period of solid friendship.
and in order for those friendships to evolve in sexually intimate committed relationships, both persons had to proactively agree to engage in a dating period, where both were openly frank about the feelings. and they embarked on the process without preconceived expectations, but only as a test to identify the nature and possibilities of their relationship beyond friendship. intercourse was withheld, to first discover if their was any intimate emotional romantic connection.
Feetxxxl,
As I've already mentioned, to do as you suggest, I'd have to believe in those lies about myself. I'd have to accept that I'm different from most other guys. I'd have to reject what I believe God's word tells me about right and wrong. I would see myself as effiminate, rather than masculine. And anytime I have ever tried that in the past--to accept those things--it has bothered me so terribly. My feelings of self-worth become diminished. I feel distanced from God. I begin acting and thinking about myself more as a girl, rather than as a man, and that always has torn me up. It confuses me. I know I'm male, but it's like I'm not male. And I can't make those two feelings coincide. I can't act out homosexually and feel manly or masculine at the same time. But to distance myself from homosexuality, I feel closer to God, more masculine, and more confident in myself as being male. And I find it's easier for me to make male friends in that regard.
You say: "have you ever worshipped in a church with other believers who happened to be gay, and who shared your inheritance in christ. believers who thought their orientation was of christ ,rather that against him?"
No, I haven't. Although I have communicated with other people who have felt as though their orientation was of Christ, and not against him. I assume you're meaning that it's okay for them to be both homosexually oriented as well as to engage in homosexual acts inside a committed, loving, relationship. I don't believe homosexuality was something of God's doing. As I've already said, there are lies to it, and I don't believe God would want people to experience such things. I do, however, believe that homosexuality is something created by the devil in an attempt to confuse people about how God TRULY made them. Having said that, I don't believe God holds a persons attractions against them, but only the acting out on those attractions.
Happy New Year! :)
Brandon
One more thought,
You say: "thank you for your intimate sharing. i worship at an mcc 300 member church. i have never heard testamonies of that nature.
and have never detected a spirit of denial, deceit or delusion in the worship and fellowship."
The reason you have never heard a testimony like mine at your church is because the members have chosen to accept their homosexuality and to believe in the lies of the devil. They have embraced it to the point where they cannot see the truth. I say that not to belittle the members of your church, or you, but to explain that a person with their eyes closed, naturally, won't see such things as I've been talking about. A few years ago, I think I could have felt really at ease attending an MCC church. Because at the time, I thought much as you seem to think now. That it would be okay for me to be homosexual and to engage in homosexual acts if I found a guy who I could be in love with and have a committed relationship with. But, I can see now where I was believing lies. I was looking for ways, perhaps subconciously more than anything else, to make homosexuality okay.
dear brandon
this is my understanding: we are created thru the spirit of christ. therefore we are of the same essence as the essence of the life that is christ.(god called us, our essence very good, genesis) that is why in romans 1, paul says we able to recognize the goodness of god, what is of him, thru what he created. in additon,(jeremiah31) he has put his laws in our minds and written them on our hearts. so we are intimately bonded to god's spirit of the law of life.
that is why i said there was no spirit of delusion, denial, and deceit in the worship.
it is my understanding, that given what is written scripture, any worship of anything that comes against god requires the presence of at least one of these negative spirits, regardless of the awareness of the worshippers.
that is why it was so important that i fellowship with homosexual believers. to witness the spirit of their worship. what else in christ would have been a credible witness, than to have experienced........................"that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched(1john1).....................to determine if what is being affirming is of christ.
Feetxxxl,
That would make more sense to me if I believed people were born gay, but I do not. I don't think anyone is born gay. I see homosexuality as something the devil uses to attempt to do away with God's goodness meant for mankind. As I've said before, there are lies that go along with homosexuality and those lies go against the goodness of God. He made me male, so I should see myself as male--fully. Anything to the contrary is separate and apart from God's truth. And even if someone did eventually find a gay gene or was able to indisputably prove that homosexuality is genetic, that still wouldn't change my view, because our genetic makeup still wouldn't excuse us to sin. For example, some people are born with certain genes that make them prone to addictive behavior, such as gambling and drinking. But we do not condone those two things, do we? We do not condone people who drink themselves to death or who gamble away everything they have, do we? Even if they have genetic genes making them prone to such behavior?
On a different subject, I do not doubt that homosexuals of any kind can fellowship and worship in Christ, and can do a great good for each other. However, the same thing can be said of child sex offenders. Look at the Catholic priest scandles a few years back. Here you have pedophiles worshipping God, fellowshipping with other believers, and probably doing a lot of good for a lot of people. But at the same time they were sinning against God by abusing all those children. It's the same thing with homosexuality. Any homosexual can go to church, fellowship with each other, love each other, and build each other up, but when they engage in homosexual activity, they sin against each other and God by abusing their bodies and doing what God defines as unnatural. God did not make men for having sex with other men, or women for having sex with other women.
And as far as testing. I don't have to attend a church full of homosexuals to form an opinion. I know in my heart, in my mind, and in my soul that homosexual acts are sinful. Yes, homosexuals can love each other, fellowship with each other, worship God together, and all of that. But when they have sex, that is sin. It doesn't take away from the rest, but it does add a stain to it. Just as the good that was in those priests isn't taken away by the fact that they abused those children, but those acts certainly did put a stain on the Catholic church now, didn't it.
dear brandon
i am impressed with the sincerity of your words and my heart goes out to your suffering.
but my life experiences are different than yours.
when i fellowship with those a mcc, i see male faces that are obviously attracted to the same sex, and in knowing them, i see not a shred of possibility of ever being attracted to the opposite sex. i am reminded of the testimonies, i have witnessed by those who after coming out of the closet, spoke of the affirmation they experienced. tan affirmation that came from no longer living a lie. giving the impression of being of one orientation while actually being of another. i look at them and i thank god that they an affirming committed relationship with someone.
ithe difference between the homosexual relationships and the deviant ones of the priests, is that the ones of the priests were not affirming in their deviancy, but instead were destructive.. and were of ,and engendered in others, self hatred and self loathing, these acts were shame based and lust ridden and done in secrecy. they violated the vows of the position they were given.
i am also reminded of how its of common agreement, that the highest form of sexual intimacy is when it is an expression, and an affirmation of a committed shared relationship founded on mutual love, respect, trust,devotion, and attraction. a relationship, that is covered by vows of marriage, and is in agreement that jesus is lord.
yes, it is obvious that you are suffering. but in your suffering, you appear to be unable to acknowledge that the 320 million gays in the world and an the 12 million in this country might have life experiences about being gay, that are different from your own..
that is why i suggested your attending a church that supports homosexuality. however after hearing your testimony i no longer offer that suggestion.
you give a testimony of sin. can you explain what that sin is, of what spirit is it of?
can the love of christ be limited to one orientation over another.
Feetxxxl,
I realize not all people have had the same life experiences that I have. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but for myself. My conviction is that homosexual behavior is sin. My life experiences tell me this. Even if I were in a committed and loving relationship with another man, I'd still feel the same. You talk about people being affirmed in their homosexual orientation and no longer having to live a lie. Well, if you call being a man and thinking of yourself as something other than male not living a lie, then you certainly have me stumped. Like I already said, I see homosexuality as a lie. For me, I'm not trying to pretend to be straight. Nor would I encourage anyone else to pretend to be straight. I'm simply trying to live a Godly life, free of sin. If my attractions change, then great. If not, I can live with my attractions. My interest is in not acting out on my attractions, because to do so, I believe, would be to sin against God. My goal is to first seek the kingdom of God in all things.
I will agree with you about the priest scandle. Bad example on my part. But what I was trying to show was that no sin is good just because it's committed by people who otherwise live Godly lives. All sin is bad. You know, some men may not have any problem at all being with another man. Frankly, that doesn't bother me either, except in knowing that it's sinful behavior and in knowing that it causes me to think and act effiminate and to question myself and God. But just because someone isn't bothered by it, still does not make it okay. If a person can reconcile homosexuality with their faith, then, as we've said before, they're under God's grace and that'll be a matter between them and God in the end. I just simply cannot reconcile the two for myself. And anytime I've tried to be okay with acting out homosexually, it's just really bothered me. I feel dirty about it even if I am in love. And there again, that's because acting out homosexually makes me feel more feminine, and causes me to question my gender and as well my relationship with God. It's happened every single time I've tried to be okay with homosexuality. So, that's where I'm at and where I'm coming from.
I don’t want to interrupt or be rude but as a gay member of the LDS church I find this dialogue to be very interesting. I have the same sort of experience in the LDS church that Feetxxl says he has in the MCC, except my church does not know that I am gay. Would either of you accept me as a fellow christian and do you think the MCC would accept me as a fellow Christian even though I am a Mormon?
- Andrew
do you think you would accept them as a mormon.............they all have websites.......goggle them and find out.
dear brandon
given your difficulty, what do you believe your options are? im praying for you now, but have you considered a healing ministry within a church where you could find fellowship and healing prayer?
having been raised in an extremely disfunctional family, i found it healing just to be able to share my pain with a group of believers.......... to be able to speak it out verbally in a group that accepted me just the way i was without judgement,(holding what i spoke in confidence) or trying to fix me............. that in itself was cathartic.
there is also the serenity prayer ministry.
Feetxxl thanx for the suggestion. I might be moving from La Jolla to San Fransico. I'll check out their website. But, do YOU consider me a Christian?
- Andrew
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Fellas,
We're going to have to continue our conversation in another place. The number of comments here is literally bogging down my computer so that I can't bring up these pages. So, I'll title a new Post "Comments Continued" and we continue the conversation there. Sorry for any inconvenience.
Brandon
One more thing, I responded to your last comments in the comments section of the new post. I won't look at the comments of this post anymore, but will go to the other one, on account that it's taking forever for this page to load on my outdated computer. So, please don't comment under this post anymore. Just go to the new post and comment.
Post a Comment